Federation encounters Oceania.

[Acenos]

The Cardassians already exist as such a civilization but in this case I'm talking about an exact replica of Oceania from 1984. As described in the book and likely a parallel Earth or an Earth from another Dimension. All the way down to them being perpetually stuck in the 1940s, and down to the hierarchical structure as shown in the book. However, the difference here is that they basically rule the world and the superstates of eastasia and eurasia are little more than imaginary "enemies" that the party made up as one of the ways of keeping the proles and outer party members down.

How would the federation handle this civilization? And would the Prime directive still matter towards a pre-warp civilization that has stalled and hit a dead end in it's development? And if said civilization was hellbent on aggressive expansion or spreading their ideology across the galaxy?

Imagine a scenario where a second expedition is made to the planet as a means of both cataloging it further as well as searching for the fate of the first expedition only to discover that the first expedition to the planet of said civilization led to the "Inner Party" kidnapping the ship's crew and turning them into sleeper agents with the intention of spreading the joys and virtues of Big Brother and English Socialism across the galaxy as a means of furthering their endless acquisition of power for power's sake as they see the federation as one of their many threats to power.

If it were the kirk era enterprise assigned to this expedition, Imagine how they would react to and handle this civilization? Imagine Kirk encountering the brainwashed captain and crew from the first expedition and then learning of their fate the moment the Captain points his phaser at him and says this:


"I Love Big Brother".

 

[BillJ]

Kirk’s job would be to extract the crew and Federation technology. Interactions with the locals might light a spark in them, but Kirk can’t out and out overthrow the government.

Or the Klingons get there first and stomp the shit out of them.

 

[StarCruiser]

It IS touching to see how they love Big Brother... Isn't it?

 

[Acenos]

so what

Kirk’s job would be to extract the crew and Federation technology. Interactions with the locals might light a spark in them, but Kirk can’t out and out overthrow the government.

Or the Klingons get there first and stomp the shit out of them.

What if the survivors were converted into sleeper agents as stated in this scenario?

like they trigger the moment they are taken aboard the enterprise and they start speaking in "doublespeak" rather than english.

 

[BillJ]

so what


What if the survivors were converted into sleeper agents as stated in this scenario?

A few crew? I don’t think it would have much of an impact on the Federation, honestly.

 

[Acenos]

A few crew? I don’t think it would have much of an impact on the Federation, honestly.

So how would the Crew of the enterprise handle the sleeper agent crew members?"

 

[Acenos]

It IS touching to see how they love Big Brother... Isn't it?

And imagine those brainwashed crew memebers acivating on the enterprise and attempting to beam more representatives of ingsoc aboard the ship

 

[BillJ]

So how would the Crew of the enterprise handle the sleeper agent crew members?"

Not given it much thought. McCoy is a trained psychologist, if anything is off the crew would be confined to quarters.

Am I writing someone’s fan fiction?

 

[BillJ]

And imagine those brainwashed crew memebers acivating on the enterprise and attempting to beam more representatives of ingsoc aboard the ship

The Enterprise may be bad to the bone, but it is just one ship.

 

[StarCruiser]

Remember - assuming this is the Enterprise under J.T. Kirk - there is also Spock. When they figure something is up with the rescued crew, they will try conventional methods first, and failing that, Spock will mind-meld with them and find the Ingsoc conditioning/brainwashing.

From that point on, they will be simply sorting out the rescued crew and securing them until they figure out how to undo the damage.

Of course, Kirk will give Ingsoc a good ol' fashioned Kirktastic (tm) tongue lashing while making plans on how to either wreck Ingsoc itself, or at least plant the seeds of its own destruction.

 

[Sci]

The Cardassians already exist as such a civilization but in this case I'm talking about an exact replica of Oceania from 1984. As described in the book and likely a parallel Earth or an Earth from another Dimension. All the way down to them being perpetually stuck in the 1940s, and down to the hierarchical structure as shown in the book. However, the difference here is that they basically rule the world and the superstates of eastasia and eurasia are little more than imaginary "enemies" that the party made up as one of the ways of keeping the proles and outer party members down.

How would the federation handle this civilization?

The same way they handle every other pre-warp society: By observing them and not contacting them.

And would the Prime directive still matter towards a pre-warp civilization that has stalled and hit a dead end in it's development?

Yes, because the Federation has no right to determine what constitutes a "stall," nor do they know with any certainty that a local resistance movement won't eventually overthrow the Party.

And if said civilization was hellbent on aggressive expansion or spreading their ideology across the galaxy?

I imagine the Federation would make first contact with the Oceanians once they invent warp drive -- which they never would invent warp drive, because the kind of oppression the Party imposes would stifle innovation; but let us suppose. They would explain the basics of local and explored space to them, and promise to partner with them as equals if they abandon totalitarianism and embrace democracy. If the Oceanians refuse, the Federation would probably refuse to trade with them or open any but the barest of diplomatic relations with them. If the Oceanians display imperialistic tendencies, the Federation would no double stifle their attempts to conquer other people's planets -- which would be pretty easy with a 2060s level of tech.

Imagine a scenario where a second expedition is made to the planet as a means of both cataloging it further as well as searching for the fate of the first expedition only to discover that the first expedition to the planet of said civilization led to the "Inner Party" kidnapping the ship's crew and turning them into sleeper agents with the intention of spreading the joys and virtues of Big Brother and English Socialism across the galaxy as a means of furthering their endless acquisition of power for power's sake as they see the federation as one of their many threats to power.

Seems pretty implausible. Sorry, but a 1940s-to-2060s level of tech just wouldn't enable the Oceanians to accomplish something like this. Hell, all the Starfleet crew in orbit would need to do is teleport the Inner Party leadership to a cargo bay to totally disable the entire government.

 

[at Quark's]

First of all, if the Oceanians had captured the crew of the first ship, most likely a few of the most trusted members of the Inner Party would know about it, but probably no one else. For the same reason, even if those Inner Party people believed they should subjugate the galaxy, they would not say so out loud. Because they would be admitting to the public that most of the universe was, in fact, not under their control yet, and they would refuse to do even that. See the following scene, when the protagonist is captured and O' Brien just told him that most of history he saw in musea was 'fake history', that there was no world before Man and there would be none after Man disappeared.

'But the whole universe is outside us. Look at the stars! Some of them are a million light-years away. They are out of our reach for ever.'

'What are the stars?' said O'Brien indifferently. 'They are bits of fire a few kilometres away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out. The earth is the centre of the universe. The sun and the stars go round it.'

Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O'Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection:

'For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?'

Which means that if Kirk were to negotiate with them, he probably wouldn't be breaking the prime directive, as none of this would leak into the knowledge of people who didn't already know about it.

And even if the Federation decided to break the Prime Directive, they might do it similarly to the way it's done in the Culture Novel The Player of Games. In that book, Azad is a relatively primitive interstellar empire with imperial tendencies and brutal suppression of the lower castes. The general populace knows about the existence of The Culture, but believe them to be on the roughly same technological and power level or even inferior to their own, and if I remember correctly, the Culture goes along with this, in public at least in the interest of maintaining good relations. Only their top leaders (about 8 people) know how powerful and how far beyond them The Culture really is. All the while, the Culture has a plan by interfering under the disguise of "friendly relations" and topple the empire from within).

Finally, as a loose thought, of course it stretches the bounds of believability they couldn't simply isolate the lifesigns of the lost crews, beam them up, keep them in secure custody and bring them to a specialised facility to undo the brain washing, if all those people possess is 1940-ish technology.

 

[Acenos]

First of all, if the Oceanians had captured the crew of the first ship, most likely a few of the most trusted members of the Inner Party would know about it, but probably no one else. For the same reason, even if those Inner Party people believed they should subjugate the galaxy, they would not say so out loud. Because they would be admitting to the public that most of the universe was, in fact, not under their control yet, and they would refuse to do even that. See the following scene, when the protagonist is captured and O' Brien just told him that most of history he saw in musea was 'fake history', that there was no world before Man and there would be none after Man disappeared.



Which means that if Kirk were to negotiate with them, he probably wouldn't be breaking the prime directive, as none of this would leak into the knowledge of people who didn't already know about it.

And even if the Federation decided to break the Prime Directive, they might do it similarly to the way it's done in the Culture Novel The Player of Games. In that book, Azad is a relatively primitive interstellar empire with imperial tendencies and brutal suppression of the lower castes. The general populace knows about the existence of The Culture, but believe them to be on the roughly same technological and power level or even inferior to their own, and if I remember correctly, the Culture goes along with this, in public at least in the interest of maintaining good relations. Only their top leaders (about 8 people) know how powerful and how far beyond them The Culture really is. All the while, the Culture has a plan by interfering under the disguise of "friendly relations" and topple the empire from within).

Finally, as a loose thought, of course it stretches the bounds of believability they couldn't simply isolate the lifesigns of the lost crews, beam them up, keep them in secure custody and bring them to a specialised facility to undo the brain washing, if all those people possess is 1940-ish technology.

Remember the ministry of love and what they did to julia and winston. Can the federation really undo that leavel of brainwashing?

 

[Acenos]

most of history he saw in musea was 'fake history', that there was no world before Man and there would be none after Man disappeared.

From a non oceanian perspective. It doesn't make sense and is convoluted

 

[Acenos]

The same way they handle every other pre-warp society: By observing them and not contacting them.



Yes, because the Federation has no right to determine what constitutes a "stall," nor do they know with any certainty that a local resistance movement won't eventually overthrow the Party.



I imagine the Federation would make first contact with the Oceanians once they invent warp drive -- which they never would invent warp drive, because the kind of oppression the Party imposes would stifle innovation; but let us suppose. They would explain the basics of local and explored space to them, and promise to partner with them as equals if they abandon totalitarianism and embrace democracy. If the Oceanians refuse, the Federation would probably refuse to trade with them or open any but the barest of diplomatic relations with them. If the Oceanians display imperialistic tendencies, the Federation would no double stifle their attempts to conquer other people's planets -- which would be pretty easy with a 2060s level of tech.



Seems pretty implausible. Sorry, but a 1940s-to-2060s level of tech just wouldn't enable the Oceanians to accomplish something like this. Hell, all the Starfleet crew in orbit would need to do is teleport the Inner Party leadership to a cargo bay to totally disable the entire government.

The part where you said that the party's oppression stifles innovation is the reason why i say that civilization on Oceania's Earth has hit a dead end. Remember landru?

 

[BillJ]

The part where you said that the party's oppression stifles innovation is the reason why i say that civilization on Oceania's Earth has hit a dead end. Remember landru?

They were dealing with something that had been going on for 6,000 years in “Return of the Archons”. Twenty to thirty years is merely a blip to a long running civilization, and I would think you would need a much longer cycle of stagnation before interfering would be considered an option.

 

[Sci]

The part where you said that the party's oppression stifles innovation is the reason why i say that civilization on Oceania's Earth has hit a dead end. Remember landru?

But:

1) Opposition forces exist.

2) Technological innovation is not the same thing as social progress.

3) It is not the Federation's place to determine whether or not a "stall" has occurred or whether or not a "stall" is something that "shouldn't" happen.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Opposition forces exist.

In Oceania? I always thought that was a lie, perpetuated by the Party, to draw out any suspects.

Meaning, there never was an organized opposition to Big Brother. The Party was just using it as a trap.

 

[Sci]

In Oceania? I always thought that was a lie, perpetuated by the Party, to draw out any suspects.

Meaning, there never was an organized opposition to Big Brother. The Party was just using it as a trap.

The Brotherhood may or may not exist; the text is ambiguous. But in real life, there is no such thing as an absence of opposition and never will be.

 

[Tenacity]

turning them into sleeper agents

The doctor in the sickbay of the recovering ship would wave a little blue light over their forehead, not a sleeper agent any more.