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How is atheism a faith?

So then, is morality just a function of our neural hardwiring? Are we only moral because of a chemical process in our brains, because millennia of natural selection have determined we socially benefit from not killing?

Most atheists would prescribe an intrinsic value to life that isn’t dependent on Darwinian prescriptions.
That is so, I myself consider life to be of more value exactly because I do not believe in an afterlife, and I do consider myself as a human being as a spiritual part of this world. However, I'm under no illusion that this is the main, let alone only, reason that I do not kill other people. The main reason, as I described above (as did @Timelord Victorious ), is instinct evolved from necessities of the nature of being a gregarious species.
 
The current scientific theories for the universe require advanced degrees to even modestly understand and still don’t really answer the question “Why is there something rather than nothing?”

"Why" is not a question science can answer. The question itself, looking for some kind of meaning or motivation, is probably just an artifact of human brain-wiring. To paraphrase Homer Simpson, "It's just a bunch of stuff that happened." Science looks at how it happened.

And even putting aside the science of the origins of the universe, why is it bad to kill someone to benefit yourself if you know for sure there will not be consequences? Is it just because your brain is hardwired to feel bad about it, or do you believe in the abstract value of life? And in the absence of the threat of eternal torture, does that abstract belief in the value of life not also require faith?

Some animals are solitary and territorial and some, like humans, are social and need to live in groups to survive. But being intelligent and rational, individuals can make decisions that benefit themselves to the detriment of others. If too many individuals take those kinds of actions, the social group breaks down. So, also being intelligent and rational the other way, humans come up with moral codes and laws and taboos etc. to strengthen the group and make the selfish impulse less attractive. Religion can be a way to enforce this behavior, but so can campfire stories and songs and novels and poems and plays and movies and TV shows etc.

As for the threat of eternal torture, if that's the only thing that keeps a person from victimizing others, that person's ethical system is out of whack. It's a bit like saying "I would steal a bunch of stuff from this shop if they didn't have surveillance cameras everywhere." It's wrong to steal from the shop, period, cameras or no.

There was another saying I heard and liked; I don't remember who said it but it was something like "If you can sort out the good parts of the Bible and disregard the horrible parts, you don't need the Bible."
 
So then, is morality just a function of our neural hardwiring? Are we only moral because of a chemical process in our brains, because millennia of natural selection have determined we socially benefit from not killing?
I don't think that there is a satisfying either/or when determining from where morality arises. It will always appear not only as a mix of impulses, but a mix of conversations across many domains. For instances, we could understand Hammurabi's code as an anticlerical sentiment: it places adjudicating crimes in the realm of interhuman relations and takes it away from the temple priesthood. However, it still took root in a largely religious society by a man to whom elements of godhood were ascribed.
 
"Why" is not a question science can answer. The question itself, looking for some kind of meaning or motivation, is probably just an artifact of human brain-wiring. To paraphrase Homer Simpson, "It's just a bunch of stuff that happened." Science looks at how it happened.
To be fair, "why" in this context could also be read as "by what mechanism" etc. In other words, it could be a question purely about the physics of existence.
 
To be fair, "why" in this context could also be read as "by what mechanism" etc. In other words, it could be a question purely about the physics of existence.

Fair point. From the context, I took it as a more metaphysical question. Sorry if that assumption was wrong.
 
I’m an atheist myself, to be clear.

But I’m surprised how many atheists are saying morality is strictly the application of an evolutionary function and not something greater and more important than the sum of our biological parts. If morality is just a story we tell ourselves to justify our animal communal nature, then it has no strict importance and you should be able to excuse murder, rape and slavery if a person claims to be acting on a greater biological imperative.

If our belief murder is wrong only comes from a biological imperative to be part of a community, then why is it not okay when somebody’s biological impulse to spread seed leads to a rape? If morality is only a biological function, why judge anyone for not having it, as long as you yourself are not threatened by their moral violations?

We all, I assume, apply a set of basic moral standards to everyone with no exceptions other than to prevent more serious moral violations. It’s more to us than an animal desire to be part of a community and instinct to feel empathy. It’s an abstract principle greater than the sum of our biology.

Otherwise, why call anything immoral that does not relate to our own stake in other people’s behavior? Why care what happens outside our clan at all, why be bothered when Trump dehumanizes immigrants? We evolved to be part of a clan and act morally within the clan, we did not evolve to treat all humans as members of the clan. We came up with that ourselves.
 
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I’m an atheist myself, to be clear.

But I’m surprised how many atheists are saying morality is strictly the application of an evolutionary function and not something greater and more important than the sum of our biological parts. If morality is just a story we tell ourselves to justify our animal communal nature, then it has no strict importance and you should be able to excuse murder, rape and slavery if a person claims to be acting on a greater biological imperative.

If our belief murder is wrong only comes from a biological imperative to be part of a community, then why is it not okay when somebody’s biological impulse to spread seed leads to a rape? If morality is only a biological function, why judge anyone for not having it, as long as you yourself are not threatened by their moral violations?

Well, for starters, empathy has already been mentioned. It is also a human instinct that evolved because of our social nature, social groups have a higher chance of survival if the members feel compelled to help each other out. And second, again, the good of the social group (let's just call it a tribe), just like with killing. Empathy left aside, rape can do long-term damage to the victim, both physically and emotionally, which in turn hurts the tribe in the long run. And especially in repeat offenses, other males would see the rapist as impeding their own impulse to procreate.

Now, I know this all sounds rather cold, cynical and analytical, which is why I wish to again remind about empathy, because that's the obvious main response. All the other things I mentioned would be secondary, or even subconsciously.

We all, I assume, apply a set of basic moral standards to everyone with no exceptions other than to prevent more serious moral violations. It’s more to us than an animal desire to be part of a community and instinct to feel empathy. It’s an abstract principle greater than the sum of our biology.

Otherwise, why call anything immoral that does not relate to our own stake in other people’s behavior? Why care what happens outside our clan at all, why be bothered when Trump dehumanizes immigrants? We evolved to be part of a clan and act morally within the clan, we did not evolve to treat all humans as members of the clan. We came up with that ourselves.

As I wrote in my first response to your line of questions, who and what we consider part of our social group has evolved through the ages, from tribes, to nations, to ethnicities, to religious groups, to class, and finally the more global view that many of us have today. I also talked about the reasons of why some people dehumanize groups of people they wish to harm. And if you look around, there are certainly still people with different views on who they consider part of their community deserving of their personal protection. Racists are still out there, powerful people with disregard for the less powerful, religious people with fear and hatred of other religious, or non-religious, groups, dehumanizing based on gender and sexuality, etc. So, yeah, that obviously still exists, but over time we have made progress towards the kind of global tribalism you are speaking of.

There are, of course, factors to bring us to this. Media is a major factor. From translated books, films and television, international news reports, to finally the globally connected world wide web. This all allowed us to connect with one another, relate to one another, and actually (rather than just rhetorically) view ourselves as equal parts of a bigger humankind.

If you wish to know more, it's called sociology. I recommend looking into it.
 
Our ability to empathize with others even exceeds any conventional tribe definition.
We are at the point where at least some people extend the well being of others beyond our own species.
Partly because we recognize their well being to be within our own interests and beneficial to us, and partly because we recognize some of our behavior toward animals as unnecessary cruelty.

Unfortunately, most of the time the fate of those animals is in the hands of people who profit financially from their demise and suffering.

personally, I regard any being capable of feeling pain and emotions as worthy of protection.
Except, mosquitos. They have it coming.
 
I have to laugh because this conversation makes incredible assumptions about how moral humans actual are. Conspecific violence has been shown to be six times higher among hominids than other mammals, from now back to our earliest ancestors. I suspect that their is really less natural propensity to avoid killing each other than we believe, and we are too quick to pat ourselves on the back.
 
I have to laugh because this conversation makes incredible assumptions about how moral humans actual are. Conspecific violence has been shown to be six times higher among hominids than other mammals, from now back to our earliest ancestors. I suspect that their is really less natural propensity to avoid killing each other than we believe, and we are too quick to pat ourselves on the back.
You are right.
We are merely talking about potential ethics here.
In reality , ethical and moral behavior is in conflict with other behavioral imperatives and patterns all the time.
Morals don’t always win.
And recognizing a moral failing has to be learned, or rather immoral behavior has to be unlearned after being taught a while life that it is acceptable and even desirable.
It’s at this point that religion can be detrimental, because moral behavior is linked to the glorification of a fictional being, and not general well being of living things.
 
Our ability to empathize with others even exceeds any conventional tribe definition.
We are at the point where at least some people extend the well being of others beyond our own species.
Partly because we recognize their well being to be within our own interests and beneficial to us, and partly because we recognize some of our behavior toward animals as unnecessary cruelty.

Unfortunately, most of the time the fate of those animals is in the hands of people who profit financially from their demise and suffering.

personally, I regard any being capable of feeling pain and emotions as worthy of protection.
Co-operative behaviour is certainly biologically important for whatever reason we develop it. I don't think it's the largest factor in the development of morality though. That's down to empathy.

Empathy can mean acting against your own best interests. I love meat - I haven't eaten it for over 35 years. I certainly don't need meat to survive and killing because I like the taste is simply cruelty without justification. It's inflicting suffering for my own pleasure - it's perverse.

Why would I deny myself enjoyment without any benefit to myself ? It's a net loss, not explained by an evolutionary advantage. It's empathy leading to a particular choice. That's got to be seen to be an ethical or moral point of view.

A point of view, strangely at odds with most religions which treat animals as gifts to humanity to be utilised as we wish.

Except, mosquitos. They have it coming.

You may very well believe that. I, of course, could not possibly comment.
 
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It’s at this point that religion can be detrimental, because moral behavior is linked to the glorification of a fictional being, and not general well being of living things.
And yet the evidence shows that civilizations don't start talking about morality and ethics without religion.
 
And yet the evidence shows that civilizations don't start talking about morality and ethics without religion.
Which evidence is that?
I don’t know any society that is untouched by religious influences.
How would you get a data set on religious free societies to compare them with each other?
 
Even certain species of non-human animals can show empathy towards their own kind and other species. I don’t think that that can have anything to do with religion.
 
Maybe that’s because writing in general was a perk for clerics at first?

i doubt practicing morality requires the ability to read and write.
Writing was a tool of the elite, for sure. But credit where credit is due, many subjects were broached and had their beginings in the context of religious institutions. Even science found its origins in the ziggurat. And morality is not a one way discourse. It is a conversastion between peoples of differing points of view.
 
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