Maybe Reg watched TMP before Realm of Fear XD
TMP's Transporter Accident on Loop is the Stuff of Nightmares
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"What we got back didn't live long... Fortunately."
Frankly, Kirk comes off as terrible in this movie and the seeds are being laid for "Kirk has a midlife crisis" as literally the basis for the first four movies but most certainly in "Wrath of Khan." In both movies, Kirk's attempts to relive out his glory days gets a bunch of innocent Starfleet officers killed.
I feel like there's also a black joke that was originally intended with McCoy and transporters but they (wisely) removed it.
Something like:
"I hate transporters, Jim. I know you're going to tell me they're the safest way to travel but--"
"Actually, two people died on the pad an hour ago."
"Wait, what?"
I feel like there's also a black joke that was originally intended with McCoy and transporters but they (wisely) removed it.
Something like:
"I hate transporters, Jim. I know you're going to tell me they're the safest way to travel but--"
"Actually, two people died on the pad an hour ago."
"Wait, what?"
How interesting the scene could've been if McCoy was present when the accident happened? Game changer for the character.
Indeed. But, I think we would be hard pressed to have a quiet chuckle at McCoy's "let's see how it scrambles their molecules" comment. McCoy's attitude would take on a much weightier tone.
The irony is that Kirk did to Decker what Decker’s father did to him in assuming command.
It is just as well—Kirk’s saving grace is that he didn’t raise shields as Decker suggested or they might have been absorbed. Here Kirk was actually more laidback than Decker—a mistake with Reliant.
It is just as well—Kirk’s saving grace is that he didn’t raise shields as Decker suggested or they might have been absorbed. Here Kirk was actually more laidback than Decker—a mistake with Reliant.
What was wrong with TOS transporters where an upgrade was needed and did that!?!
“Engineers like to change stuff”.
Beside this, I assume the TMP transporters were better in some way. Many decades later on TNG they are clearly much more capable and it makes sense they got there with many minor improvements over the years.
Beside this, I assume the TMP transporters were better in some way. Many decades later on TNG they are clearly much more capable and it makes sense they got there with many minor improvements over the years.
Not exactly, Matt Decker took over command from Spock while Kirk was not aboard.
Watching this movie last night this was entirely my reaction. 1) why do it? 2) literally minutes later he's force beaming him over like nothing has happened.
Quite probably the result of the many rewrites the movie underwent. They even started filming before the script was finalized.
Kirk is stiff and uptight in the first act, but I'm not sure he comes off as terrible. He's bold, determined, impatient, and a little cold. He takes a time to become readjusted to the responsibilities of starship command and to become reacquainted with an "almost totally new Enterprise" (in the words of Decker). But he gets there. Especially once Spock arrives. I let Kirk off because he's a little rusty out of that command chair (even he admits to Scotty that he might be a little "stale"), and the threat of V'Ger is so overwhelming that there isn't time to think and strategise or indulge in too many niceties. Yes, this blinds Kirk to his egocentric impulses, but it makes sense in-context. And he luckily has McCoy pointing these things out to him -- something that Kirk himself seemed to perceive the importance of by telling McCoy, with emphasis, he "needed" him when he beamed aboard.
If Kirk comes across anywhere as terrible, then it's probably in TWOK where he inexplicably appears to have brain freeze when approaching the Reliant. Even Spock "covers" for his commanding officer and best friend by basically telling Saavik to button it when she points out an important regulation that Kirk is blatantly ignoring. Kirk still has time to respond after that, but continues to do less than nothing until Spock tells him that the Reliant is locking phasers (having already informed him that the Reliant was raising shields) -- and by then, of course, it's too late. Dear ol' "Admiral" Kirk wasn't merely "getting senile", but being totally negligent and even propped up in his negligence by Spock -- a major departure from the way TMP depicts the two of them. All to lazily give Khan the upper-hand and allow him to carve the Enterprise up like a Christmas turkey.
Contrast TWOK's depiction of an aged Kirk with the way Kirk is actively pushing for more to be done sooner rather than later in TMP. As opposed to just sitting there and rubbing his chin in puzzlement ("This is damn peculiar"). Kirk is also lacking synchronicity with his beloved ship in TMP. But in TWOK, it's the same ship (albeit much more crudely depicted), leaving less believable reason for Kirk to be so out-of-sorts. Instead, Meyer tries to shove an aging theme in there; whereas TMP shows a mildly-aged Kirk recovering his youthful vigour at the end. So TWOK basically redoes the whole thing, but with an overt emphasis on senescence (the reading glasses, the aged, white-haired Khan as Kirk's "alter ego", etc.) and without the same subtlety or realism.
I don't think TMP was really setting up a "midlife crisis". I think TWOK simply pretends it did, as an excuse to do its own thing and paint over TMP entirely. There's something very arrogant in the way TWOK repurposes TMP assets, while all the time it blatantly feels like the production team are saying, "Thanks, we'll take it from here." You can find thematic similarities between the two of them (as you can for any movie), but they might as well be taking place in parallel universes. IMO, anyway.
Good observations, but you’ll remember Kirk mention he has been earthbound for only a couple of years in TMP, TWoK takes place 10/15 years later and we don’t know how long has passed since Kirk has Ben last in command. People change, get “rusty” and can make mistakes.
Also, at that point he was probably worried about carol and David and suffering from the “reopening of an old wound”, being attacked by another Starfleet ship was clearly something quite removed from his expectations.
Also, at that point he was probably worried about carol and David and suffering from the “reopening of an old wound”, being attacked by another Starfleet ship was clearly something quite removed from his expectations.
Thanks. While it's certainly true that people of all ages and positions in life make mistakes, not all mistakes are equally stupid or equally costly. And some mistakes are more easily avoided than others. But as I pointed out, you basically have Spock colluding with Kirk's indolence in TWOK and backing his captain up. This is very different to when Decker was demoted to second-in-command. Decker would point out alternatives and even "countermanded" Kirk's phaser order. But Spock shoots down Saavik's prudent interjection for no good reason. It makes his latter aside to Saavik pretty hypocritical and slightly disturbing when she wonders if Khan will follow them into the nebula: "Remind me to explain to you the concept of the human ego." Spock blatantly indulged Kirk's ego earlier when they first approached the Reliant to ruinous consequences.
If anything, those factors should have sharpened Kirk's nerves and made him more weary of the Reliant, not less. After all, when he's on the TV to Carol Marcus, the transmission is interrupted and lost. Kirk had ample reason to exercise extreme caution, especially with a ship stocked with cadets. It wasn't V'Ger all over again where raising shields seemed unwise after Kirk saw what V'Ger did to the Klingons and to Epsilon IX. There was little reason not to take precautions and either approach with shields up or maintain a safe distance. When loved ones are threatened, it's pretty standard for people to show extra concern and break into a defensive -- even an aggressive -- posture. Of course, Kirk does try to downplay the threat to Spock before they arrive ("It's may be nothing... garbled communications"), but he's clearly trying to show humility to his friend and minimise any underlying anxiety in his own mind. Kirk should have been far more cautious than he was.
Kirk comes off as terrible in both films, just in different ways. TWOK he freezes up and TMP he runs roughshod over the crew. Poor example of leadership that does not favors in continuing on with Kirk from TOS.
But TWOK sticks a fork in TMP and does a reset. Kirk's "terribleness" in TMP is justified by the circumstances of the plot and setting. In TWOK, it's "because aging". So much for the youthful, confident explorer that returns at the end of TMP. Very next film, Kirk is gloomy and self-pitying, with little justification for this about-face, other than he's now older and needs glasses, or something.
Getting older is the plot, so it is as justified as TMP. Getting old is, well, a very old plot device.
I'll grant you that there's a plot device at work. And maybe Kirk had just grown soft. But I wonder what Spock's excuse is for shutting Saavik up when she makes a valid interjection? Was Spock trying to create another Kobayashi Maru?
Further, it's extremely jarring to suddenly announce, in as many words: "Ta-da! We have an aging bunch of space heroes now. Please believe us. They look twenty years older and even need glasses! See? No pun. We got some themes here. Thwack, thwack, thwack."
Now, of course, actors age, and back then, there was little in the way of "anti-aging" technology, beyond hair, makeup, and strategic lighting. Now actors can be de-aged with a computer algorithm. But it's pretty strange and more than a little whiplash-inducing to emphasise how old the crew is when they'd just got back together in the previous film, and all looked considerably trimmer and healthier in their first big-screen outing. In addition, Star Trek (the original move timeline) is meant to be set in the 23rd Century, but these people are as vulnerable to the scourge of aging as 20th Century humans? It's all very on-the-nose.
Same with the poor Enterprise. It was a gorgeous hunk in TMP. Practically brand new. Raised to perfection. A sleek star voyager. But one movie later, it's a training vessel, and by the mid-point of the movie it has become a sorry wreck. After limping home in ST III, we even learn it's thought to be be old and is going to be decommissioned. Again, these movies might as well be taking place in parallel universes. There is little real continuity between TMP and the rest. And that's because Roddenberry was scapegoated for all the production problems on TMP and "kicked upstairs" where he couldn't interfere. Only when he returned for TNG was there anything like a proper continuation to what he began with TMP.
I sympathize with the jarring nature as I feel the same way with going from TOS to TMP and from TMP to TNG. But, if there is a plot device for TMP of Kirk being "not himself" the same is true of TWOK. Now, for me, the theme in TWOK is an interesting one of aging, and fitting for the psychological needs that humans often demonstrate and is understandable from that point of view. But, that doesn't mean Kirk's behavior is continuous from film to film.
But, at the same time, I have no issue with "on the nose" storytelling. That is one way Trek did stories. And, despite my distaste with TWOK and its long shadow over the franchise, the characters and their stories have an element that I can engage with.
As for the Enterprise-it's poorly handled from a destruction point of view, and completely unnecessary from a storytelling point of view.
And, if these movies take place in a parallel universe so what? As long as the story is entertaining and grips the audience in a way that is relatable on some level. TMP works for some and not for others. TWOK works for many and not as much for others. I'd rather it not be the well Trek returns to but can't do anything about that.
But, as much as I can appreciate wanting a proper continuation I think TMP, as a work, stands apart because there is nothing else like it. It doesn't need a continuation.
It's not continuous -- are you saying that doesn't matter? I feel it ought to. Just a bit. Kirk is a drab shell of a man at the start of TWOK. This is more or less the total opposite to the way he's portrayed at the end of TMP. We watch Kirk restoring himself to wholeness and happiness as TMP unfurls, only for him to land straight back in the same place (no: a worse place) in TWOK. That isn't so much carrying on from TMP as completely redoing it from scratch to fit a shallow purpose. Much like a political coup, the new group comes in and erases the history of the old, but isn't above stealing and repurposing much of the existing infrastructure and achievements, of course.
It's one way. But not necessarily a great way. Not when you're painting with the broad canvas of cinema. TMP was a proper cinematic outing. TWOK and the rest are more like charming TV movies. There's quite a dip in quality and texture. The Melville quotes, for example, are dumb compared to the original context. Khan wants to chase Kirk "round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames" before he gives him up? That's nice. He basically cripples his ship ten minutes later, then skulks around a boring moon/planetoid, and finally chases Kirk into a (wildly unrealistic) nebula and dies: all in the same unexciting star system. Hardly the epic quest to slay a white whale full of meditations on life, death, and the vagaries of the universe as in the original "Moby-Dick".
It's poorly handled in general in the Meyer-Bennett films. It has little to no dignity or grace or prestige about it. This is a gross departure from the careful, grandiose, and nuanced way it is portrayed in TMP. It went from being a gleaming jewel of great engineering and architectural beauty -- practically a humming, living machine in its own right -- to little more than a tatty, dirty, ugly tinderbox.
Football and other dumb crap works for a lot of people. I'd rather Star Trek be more than fast food posing as something nutritious. They took a sledgehammer in TWOK to crack a nut. Worse, they did it quite deliberately and were clearly proud of their "accomplishment". The themes, values, and perspectives of TOS and TMP were not respected. They wanted some little submarine thriller dressed up as some tawdry literary allegory and that's what they made.
You're right that TMP does benefit, in retrospect, from its uniqueness. But that needn't have been the case in 1980 onwards. They could have done better. They didn't want to.
