Romulan War & UFP

[mike hill]

The difference being the external solution is almost always the factually correct one.

The internal solutions are almost always wild speculation and mental gymnastics to explain something that can't be explained that way.

Add to that how some people actually argue and get upset while discussing the "possible" internal solutions, and that's where it all gets really weird.

Ys, external solutions are always the most factually accurate. Writer B writing a line that contradicts Writer A's earlier line, production team not finalised their setting, the show creator reducting some earlier content, the old "keeping the same name, but changing just about everything else" trick. Etc etc etc, colour me bored!
But this is a fiction we are discussing, and so although the RL rationals are accurate, maybe the Occams Razor blunting theoretical fiction questions belong here too?

 

[mike hill]

That line can be written off as an explanation for 60's audience, the later standard canon (I assume that's what you mean with std) isn't bound by it. The sensors of a 23rd century starship wouldn't be dependent on visible light only; the new cloak fooled them on bandwidths that weren't thought possible.

I totally agree that the line about invisibility was deliberately technically over simplified for the general audience.
But I have to disagree that was unique to 60's audiences. After all, modern audiences now have starships with a big window at the front of the bridge!
And I am even more surprised that you then suggest that we reduct a line that has been canon for over fifty years, in order to explain a (also canon) contradiction from today?

 

[Maurice]

In reality, the extradiegetic answer is at fault for this confusion.

The whole "simple impulse" thing appears to have come from the idea that the Romulan ship would be essentially a copy of a "starship" saucer hence no nacelles, and this was actually being discussed in notes between Roddenberry and Paul Schneider during the outline stage, with GR suggesting the enemy ship could be a reuse of the saucer from the 11' model with "watercolor" paint that could be easily removed (and even that the Enterprise sets could be redressed to be the interiors).

No nacelles = no warp drive. So the intent WAS it was sublight only...which of course makes the Romulans no threat to anyone.

At some point they decided to spend the money for an original ship model, and you can see what appears to be a lingering resemblance to the starship saucer, but they never changed the script to match the model having nacelles hence warp drive.

Impulse has a specific meaning in physics, and when they said impulse in TOS they meant sublight, even when it made no narrative sense.

 

[mike hill]

Adding fuel to the fire (or plasma to the warp coils).
I find it fascinating that the BoT BoP has hollow endings to the rear of its nacelles, which imho seem to suggest some sort of exhausts. Which (assuming further, that the nacelles are warp drive units), seems to suggest an impulse/warp dual system?
Maybe the set up is deuterium fuel tanks in the wings, the warp system (being vague, since TOS was), a fusion reactor feeding both the warp and an impulse engine aft.
Obviously just speculation but..............

 

[Timo]

In BOT, the Commander said, "He's a sorcerer, that one. He reads the thoughts in my brain. Our fuel supply all but gone and he stays out of reach." and later, "We've damaged ourselves. Our fuel reserve is gone." This issue with fuel reserves doesn't sound like they are using a quantum singularity, rather, their power and maybe propulsion is using fuel. Combine with the simple impulse comment, and it sounds like fusion reactors. I'm thinking the quantum singularity came after the TOS era as an answer to their power supply problem and a substitute/replacement for M/AM reactors.

Alternately, AQS systems use fuel, just like dilithium systems use fuel. The former might just use more of it than the latter...

But most of the content of "Balance of Terror" isn't particularly problematic in terms of Trek lore, for the simple reason that it's a first encounter (after a while) between players, and misunderstandings are likely to abound. Moreover, the Romulan party is by its very nature a secretive one, and we have little reason to think all the secrets would be revealed there.

Scotty or Spock need not get his evaluation of the enemy right: the episode has many instances where the opposite could be proven true, with little need for further comment. The systems aboard the Romulan ship need not be particularly representative of how they're "supposed" to work, either, this being a prototype that ultimately fails. And the way the ship operates need not reflect general practices, this being a test mission with very particular aims.

The episode may be challenging as regards the lore. But the lore is well aware of this, and stuff deriving from this source is certainly still being written, and perhaps aired, too.

...Basically the only outstanding problem here is that Spock would fail to appreciate the necessarily long and colorful history of invisibility. None of the rest of TOS has a problem there, and (save for "Vulcan Hello") none of the rest of the lore has!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[valkyrie013]

I kind of throw away the "simple Impulse" line. Some have taken it literally that they don't have warp, which they must to get to the neutral zone, and how would one have a war with Earth some 100 light years away on impulse?? Some have taken it that they don't have m/a reactors and are just fusion. That is possible but again unlikely. Power requirements for warp are outrageous.
So the fuel problem, Well as said, the Cloak in energy intensive, so it may require the reactor to burn at maximum to use it. and then we have the plasma weapon, which is probably a fuel hog as well. So to me, the ship is just going at 110% and it burned though its fuel reserves quickly.
Maybe the Klingon/romulan alliance was to trade for better ship technology??

 

[Timo]

Or then even this is a misunderstanding by our confused heroes, and it's actually the plasma belcher that uses fuel, leaving the ship high and dry as regards allocating the rest between the (as such economical) cloak and the engines. As far as we can tell, the ship did not do unplanned invisibility. She did do unplanned firing of the big gun, though, when having to confront the enemy ship.

The episode in isolation does not limit our options much, or cast doubt over our heroes' claims. In context, though, basically everything traditionally assumed there, by the fans, by the characters, by the fans over what the characters are assuming... Well, it needs to be interpreted - and can be, since it's a situation where fallibility is allowed.

Notwithstanding Spock's insistence that the ability to pop up must be due to theoretical invisibility, of course. He was just kidding there, obviously.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

Alternately, AQS systems use fuel, just like dilithium systems use fuel. The former might just use more of it than the latter...

That's a good idea that the QS is a alternate macguffin to Dilithium Crystals. My thoughts on warping space is that exotic energy/matter is needed in addition to vast quantities of regular energy, and the dilithium crystals coupled to M/AM reaction somehow convert/generate dark energy to be used to warp space. Perhaps the Romulan Empire is lacking dilithium, so, they turned to another technology. Both will require vast energy where the Earth forces are superior with dilithium crystal plus M/AM reactors. The Romulans are limited by reactor technology; their primary power comes from very large or massively parallel fusion reactors which consume fuel and only provides enough power for low warp factors, go invisible or fire the plasma weapon (pick one at a time). A Romulan ship is mostly a flying gas can. Earth ships only use fusion power as a secondary source which does not have large enough power generation to warp space.

She did do unplanned firing of the big gun, though, when having to confront the enemy ship.

Just once doesn't sound too "unplanned". I believe the Romulan ship used up its fuel by running invisible for an extended period. YMMV .

 

[AresB]

I totally agree that the line about invisibility was deliberately technically over simplified for the general audience.
But I have to disagree that was unique to 60's audiences. After all, modern audiences now have starships with a big window at the front of the bridge!
And I am even more surprised that you then suggest that we reduct a line that has been canon for over fifty years, in order to explain a (also canon) contradiction from today?

Canon is a tool, not a straitjacket.
But as you say, the starships in the DSC era had windows, a decade later they had viewscreens. This supports the idea that they got less dependant on visual detection and had new type of sensors that worked on different principle, that could see though the old type Romulan and Klingon cloaks. And the new cloaking device introduced in BoT could shield a ship from those.
Canon preserved.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Clearly the Temporal Cold War dramatically increased Romulan technology as well as the Federation's.

The Borg's arrival on Earth meant that Zephram Cochrane would be inspired to help create the NX-1 Enterprise.

 

[dupersuper]

A little bit of an aside. Does "quantum singularity" have any real world meaning, or is it Treknobabble?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_singularity

 

[Tenacity]

Some have taken it literally that they don't have warp

I took it to mean that ship possessed only impulse, not that the Romulans lacked warp drive at the time, or a century before at the time of the war.

Instead of sending a supersonic fighter, they sent a subsonic attack plane.

 

[ChallengerHK]

I took it to mean that ship possessed only impulse, not that the Romulans lacked warp drive at the time, or a century before at the time of the war.

Instead of sending a supersonic fighter, they sent a subsonic attack plane.

I think that's a workable explanation if we posit that the BOP was launched from some sort of carrier/tender.

 

[Henoch]

I think that's a workable explanation if we posit that the BOP was launched from some sort of carrier/tender.

No on-screen evidence, rather the dialog suggests otherwise:

COMMANDER: It is good we approach the Neutral Zone. Not too soon for me to see the stars of home. I know they are following.
CENTURION: (an older man) If an Earth ship, why does he not attack?
COMMANDER: First study the enemy, seek weakness. If I were their commander, that is what I would do.
DECIUS: My Commander sent for Decius.
COMMANDER: A message was dispatched. You've broken the rule of silence.
DECIUS: Only in code, Commander. To inform our Praetor of this glorious mission.
COMMANDER: Your carelessness might have ended this glorious mission. You're reduced two steps in rank. Return to post.
CENTURION: Take care, Commander. He has friends, and friends of his kind mean power. And power is danger.
COMMANDER: Danger and I are old companions.
CENTURION: We've seen a hundred campaigns together, and still I do not understand you.
COMMANDER: I think you do. No need to tell you what happens when we reach home with proof of the Earthmen's weakness. And we will have proof. The Earth commander will follow. He must. When he attacks, we will destroy him. Our gift to the homeland, another war.

The use of "we" by the Commander clearly refers only to his ship and crew, not some combined forces spread out on both sides of the NZ. They talk of "home" being their space and planet, not some home/mother ship waiting for them. Decius sends a message to the Praetor (or his staff), not to some vessel waiting for them (unless the Praetor is on that ship). Zero evidence of a waiting mother ship from the dialog which should contain references if there really was a waiting mother vessel, rather, we only get dialog of their "Flagship" and Romulan home space. YMMV .

 

[ChallengerHK]

No on-screen evidence, rather the dialog suggests otherwise:

The use of "we" by the Commander clearly refers only to his ship and crew, not some combined forces spread out on both sides of the NZ. They talk of "home" being their space and planet, not some home/mother ship waiting for them. Decius sends a message to the Praetor (or his staff), not to some vessel waiting for them (unless the Praetor is on that ship). Zero evidence of a waiting mother ship from the dialog which should contain references if there really was a waiting mother vessel, rather, we only get dialog of their "Flagship" and Romulan home space. YMMV .

There is zero evidence to support my theory, I agree, and I also prefer evidence to inference. In the context of my explanation, I would say that they could just as easily have meant "I can't wait to get home to Romulus, and once we've linnked up with the mothership we're going to make that happen as soon as possible." It is conjecture, but it appears, at least on the surface, to be conjecture that works, which might be the best we can attain.

 

[Henoch]

There is zero evidence to support my theory, I agree, and I also prefer evidence to inference. In the context of my explanation, I would say that they could just as easily have meant "I can't wait to get home to Romulus, and once we've linnked up with the mothership we're going to make that happen as soon as possible." It is conjecture, but it appears, at least on the surface, to be conjecture that works, which might be the best we can attain.

One thing that can't be denied is that the Romulan ship was nearly out of gas and running for the NZ. If the Commander had any plans to get home after that, then some sort of refueling vessel had to be waiting or coming soon. (Another thought is that the Romulan Empire consists of only one solar system with two habitable planets, Romulus and Remus, and the NZ boarders its asteroid belt, but this is debunked in two later episodes.)

 

[valkyrie013]

True, could have gotten back in to romulan space with the fuel he had, and then requested a tanker. But it couldn't go into the neutral zone either.
Either way, I'm surprised that the Federation didn't declare war on Romulas after BoT. A ship clearly came over to our side, and destroyed a number of installations. Equate to Pearl Harbor.. ish. A Sneak attack.

 

[Henoch]

True, could have gotten back in to romulan space with the fuel he had, and then requested a tanker. But it couldn't go into the neutral zone either.
Either way, I'm surprised that the Federation didn't declare war on Romulas after BoT. A ship clearly came over to our side, and destroyed a number of installations. Equate to Pearl Harbor.. ish. A Sneak attack.

I think the Federation sent in peace-lovers to negotiate a new and much bigger Romulan boarder with a new NZ. The Federation was on the brink with war with the Klingons and couldn't afford a two-front war, so, appeasement with the Romulans seemed like the best course (Unlike the US who declared war on both Japan and Germany for a two-front war). The attacks on the Outposts in BOT was probably all a strategic ploy by the Praetor to achieve that very goal to bring the Federation to the negotiation table. The Romulan Commander and crew were not privy to these plans and were expendable.

 

[ChallengerHK]

The attacks on the Outposts in BOT was probably all a strategic ploy by the Praetor to achieve that very goal to bring the Federation to the negotiation table. The Romulan Commander and crew were not privy to these plans and were expendable.

I don't think this is impossible, or even unikely. We're meant to think that the BOP is something special, however. One of a kind? Maybe. Product of years of expensive research? Maybe. Doesn't sound like something I'd toss away on a ploy.

That being said, it might explain why it was not fitted with a warp drive. If it's jjust being sent to certain doom for political reasons, why bother?

 

[BillJ]

The internal solutions are almost always wild speculation and mental gymnastics to explain something that can't be explained that way.

These are also the most fun to talk about.