The three divisions have no sense to them

[Henoch]

It seems that in Starfleet, like the US Navy, engineering is also a discipline and experience needed for a command role.

So, in TOS, they would be able to wear (maybe the individual's choice) their red uniforms while in command of Starbases (thinking Commodore Stone and Stocker) and, if it is a science discipline, blue uniforms as captain of a starship (thinking Captain Krasnovsky). I'm not confused. Really. YMMV .

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm always curious why there's a recent trend to separate out Medical and Science, why not Engineering/Operations and Security--they seem a far more diverse set of skills.

I personally break the colours down into:
Red: Administration, Command, Diplomacy, Flight Control, Intelligence, Shuttle Control
Gold: Engineering, Operations, Security, Tactical
Teal: Communications, Counselling, Medical, Science

Based on RW assignments, if we're sticking with three colours I'd go for:
Red: Command, Diplomacy, Bridge (CONN, Ops/Comms, Tactical), Security/Intel, Flight Deck/Shuttle Pilot.
Gold: Engineering (inc Transporters/Holodecks/Replicators and Environmental), Ops/Comms Technicians, Armory.
Teal/Cyan/Blue: Admin, Education, JAG, Science (including Comms - Linguistics), Medical (inc Nursing and Mental Health).

Yeah, the terminology can be confusing because there are "command" ensigns (or even acting ensigns) who are a long way from taking command of anything, and there are non-command officers like Scotty or Data who actually take command.

Agreed.

Four to five colours or at least insignia are required to fix this. The sections from TMP seem to be a good start (Command, Science, Medical, Engineering/Maintenance, Comms/Helm/Nav, Security and Services), but the "core" sections from the MM-style (Command, Engineering/Helm, Medical, Communications/Navigation/Science, Security, Services) are mostly okay, but I'd tweak one or two.

That's why I said "control" would be a better name than "command." It seems that in Starfleet, like the US Navy, engineering is also a discipline and experience needed for a command role.

Most Commonwealth navies also require stints as both Engineering Officer of the Watch and (Bridge) Officer of the Watch as part of the Warfare pipeline, AFAICT.

 

[Orphalesion]

I'm always curious why there's a recent trend to separate out Medical and Science, why not Engineering/Operations and Security--they seem a far more diverse set of skills.

It might be the colour? Teal/Cyan/Bluegreen is easy to split into Blue and Green, I guess. But i agree Science and Medical seems to be the combination of divisions that works best out of all three of them (with medicine being a science and all).

Really the division I'd split up would be Engineering and Security, since those two don't really have a lot in common with each other. Maybe keep engineering/operations in Gold and put security in a military green?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

But i agree Science and Medical seems to be the combination of divisions that works best out of all three of them (with medicine being a science and all).

Nods.

Particularly as at least two different insignia are available for blue shirts (the sphere/planet symbol and a cross, either in black or red).

Really the division I'd split up would be Engineering and Security, since those two don't really have a lot in common with each other. Maybe keep engineering/operations in Gold and put security in a military green?

Nods.

TOS is particularly confusing on this as Security is under Engineering (which is usually a "Command"/"Deck" specialism in the RW), whereas Armory Technicians are under Command (which is usually an "Engineering" specialism in the RW, except in the case of "Bridge" personnel).

 

[Henoch]

Really the division I'd split up would be Engineering and Security, since those two don't really have a lot in common with each other. Maybe keep engineering/operations in Gold and put security in a military green?

On a TOS starship, the Security Department is very small (if they really have a department - what's smaller than a department?). During TOS, they never were able to gather up more than 8 guys max. (only 6 guys to hunt the Horta!), and even then, they had to put a red shirt on Leslie to fill out the ranks. Also, they are not under "Engineering", rather, under "Ship Operations" but the Security group reports directly to the Captain.

 

[BillJ]

The three divisions have worked for most of fifty years. It is simple and clean, making characters easily identifiable.

 

[Tenacity]

Data looked cool in the red uniform

Maybe they should have put Beverly Crusher temporarily in a red uniform when she was bridge officer/OOD?

It seems that in Starfleet, like the US Navy, engineering is also a discipline and experience needed for a command role.

As a junior officer, Kirk did watches in engineering. Kirk was a weapons officer one point, we saw him once use the science station with apparent experience, and he spotted a mistake by Uhura by glancing at a display at the communications station.

There would pretty obviously be a administrative aspect to senior command as well, which we only occasionally saw. Perhaps Kirk was a yeoman too?

with medicine being a science and all

Engineers who operate the warp drive, warp core, etc. should also be sciences. More physics than machinery.

TOS is particularly confusing on this as Security is under Engineering

I never got the impression that security personnel were under the chief engineering officer's authority.

 

[BK613]

As a junior officer, Kirk did watches in engineering. Kirk was a weapons officer one point, we saw him once use the science station with apparent experience, and he spotted a mistake by Uhura by glancing at a display at the communications station.
There would pretty obviously be a administrative aspect to senior command as well, which we only occasionally saw.

This

Engineers who operate the warp drive, warp core, etc. should also be sciences. More physics than machinery.

Engineering is an applied science.
But I view the TOS Red as Ship Support Services more than just Engineering. Mostly the group of people that keep the ship functional.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Spock switched from blue (2254) to gold (2265) to blue again (2266), without an apparent change in position, except for perhaps a promotion to first officer. This implies to me that some command uniforms are by choice. Spock (and Scotty? and Data?) have the option to adopt a command uniform or a specialty uniform, and Spock chose sciences blue to emphasise his position as chief of sciences over second-in-command. Data, while acting first officer, wore red, but otherwise maintained a gold uniform as operations manager.

Some officers, like Leslie and Jae wore different divisions based on their duties that day. Others, as seen in Lower Decks, change uniforms even when trying out a new position or in a temporary spot (this is also seen in Star Trek Beyond with Chekov).

 

[Orphalesion]

Spock switched from blue (2254) to gold (2265) to blue again (2266), without an apparent change in position, except for perhaps a promotion to first officer. This implies to me that some command uniforms are by choice.

No that implies that the production changed the costuming for the actors.

 

[Tim Thomason]

No that implies that the production changed the costuming for the actors.

"Implies to me".

 

[The Wormhole]

Something that struck me as odd is the implication that in the 24th century anyway, everyone Captain and above seems to exclusively wear red, with the only exceptions being Admiral Toddman on DS9 and more recently Commodore Oh* on Picard, both of whom wore gold. It seems that aside from them, everyone who achieves Captain automatically switches to Command to achieve the rank.

*Commodore Oh was introduced in an episode that aired over six months ago, so I can mention her without spoiler code, provided I limit my reference to anything from the first six episodes of Picard. Which I did.

 

[Orphalesion]

Something that struck me as odd is the implication that in the 24th century anyway, everyone Captain and above seems to exclusively wear red, with the only exceptions being Admiral Toddman on DS9 and more recently Commodore Oh* on Picard, both of whom wore gold. It seems that aside from them, everyone who achieves Captain automatically switches to Command to achieve the rank.

Maybe it's because Starfleet employed all-red (maroon) uniforms for so long before the adoption of the TNG era uniform scheme. Maybe they decided they'd only re-introduce blue (cyan) and gold for the ranks below Captain?
Edit: Maybe that's also the in-universe reason why they switched the Command and OPs colours when compared to the TOS colour scheme, they wanted Captain and above to keep the red.

 

[The Wormhole]

Still, given that there are those in the non-command divisions that can achieve a rank of Captain or higher. Why would a Captain or Admiral with a background strictly in science/medical, or engineering and security have to switch to red when they are promoted? TOS had plenty of Captains and above who wore the other colours, why not the 24th century.

I'll concede with the Admirals it was likely productions reasons that mandated the decisions, no one wanted to make an Admiral's uniform in gold or blue. Though that gets shot down with Admiral Toddman getting a gold uniform custom made and only used once. But really, it would have been no trouble at all to show Captains in gold or blue uniforms.

 

[Charles Phipps]

There are seemingly three divisions: command, operations, and science — this concept and division in no way makes sense, and, if anything, there should be two divisions: military, and science

You set yourself up for this: "Starfleet is not a military organization!"

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You set yourself up for this: "Starfleet is not a military organization!"

In my Head Cannon / Writers Guide to the 26th century, it's 1/2 Military | 1/2 Exploratory.

 

[The Wormhole]

Oh, shit. This thread just crossed the Rubicon.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Oh, shit. This thread just crossed the Rubicon.

Which Rubicon are you refering to?

 

[The Wormhole]

The one involving the M Word Argument.

That never ends well.

 

[fireproof78]

Edit: Maybe that's also the in-universe reason why they switched the Command and OPs colours when compared to the TOS colour scheme, they wanted Captain and above to keep the red.

That's always been my rationale.