The three divisions have no sense to them

[NCC-73515]

They had more division colors in the TOS movies

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Starfleet_uniform_(mid_2270s)#Assignment_patches

 

[BK613]

The problem with this that leading has nothing to do with any divisions, but with ranks, and that is why “command division” is senseless.

It also makes little sense for the helmsman to be in command division.

IRL, authority is drawn by an officer's billet assignment. IOW, a LT doesn't have authority over every ensign in the fleet. He/she usually doesn't even have authority over every ensign on the ship. The LT only has authority over those ensigns that his/her billet assignment places under him/her.
To put it another way, the chain of command is not based on rank; it is based on the command hierarchy.

 

[Imaus]

[Tangential]

In StarQuest Online, the United System's Alliance Starfleet used the following colours:

Dark Blue - Command, given to... LT CMDRs and above?
White - Medical,
Light Blue - Science?
Green - Engineering.
Yellow - Operations? Logistics?
Red -? Operations?
Gray - Tactical

Probably because of this. I do agree the divisions could had been fleshed out a bit more. I wonder what the thought process was.

At the very least, Medical and Security should be their own thing.

I myself have looked at the color-department thing and made my own for my own work:

Red - Security
Gold - Engineering
Green - Marines
Blue - Operations (with Science, as Science is on the backburner for most of my factions as they're in a sort of technological plateau)
Purple - Intelligence
White - Medical
Black - SpecOps

They had more division colors in the TOS movies

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Starfleet_uniform_(mid_2270s)#Assignment_patches

I wish this was adopted to be more colorful and out of the collars to the shirts writ whole for TMP and the Monsters.

 

[fireproof78]

They had more division colors in the TOS movies

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Starfleet_uniform_(mid_2270s)#Assignment_patches

I've always appreciated fan RPGs and the like that expand the colors as well.

IRL, authority is drawn by an officer's billet assignment. IOW, a LT doesn't have authority over every ensign in the fleet. He/she usually doesn't even have authority over every ensign on the ship. The LT only has authority over those ensigns that his/her billet assignment places under him/her.
To put it another way, the chain of command is not based on rank; it is based on the command hierarchy.

Quite so. I don't have any proper experience with it, but I believe that there is also a distinction between line officers and support officers.

 

[NCC-73515]

I wish this was adopted to be more colorful and out of the collars to the shirts writ whole for TMP and the Monsters.

I think the colors were kept for the rest of the TOS movies as well (rank stripes, sleeve stripes, and undershirts)

 

[fireproof78]

I think the colors were kept for the rest of the TOS movies as well (rank stripes, sleeve stripes, and undershirts)

Yes. That's why I wish the maroon jacket hadn't been default for all officers.

 

[J.T.B.]

It also makes little sense for the helmsman to be in command division.

Yeah, it's not the best choice of words. I've said for years that "control division" would be a better name.

It's derived from how aircraft carriers work, in which the pilots move up to command positions.

Eh... Pilots and flight officers are not part of the carrier's crew, they are part of the air wing which is a separate command. They have jobs in their squadron (yes, flying is not their only duty) and normally move up to squadron department head, squadron XO and squadron CO. But they are line officers and can get black shoe experience in their spare time at sea. They can request to be assigned to a carrier for a department head tour. Very few get this assignment but those that do are on the inside track for carrier command.

Seems the division thing is like line vs nonline officer

Not really because officers from the engineering/services division are clearly in the ship's line of command.

 

[Tenacity]

It also makes little sense for the helmsman to be in command division.

If we're making comparisons to modern navies, it makes no sense that the helmsman is a commissioned officer. If I understand correctly, a helmsman is mid-level enlisted personnel.

The problem with extra divisions would also be what colours to select.

For security I'd select a khaki shirt, with medium dark trousers.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

The only thing I didn't quite understand is why the people piloting the ships were red/the same colour as command.
As for Data he was put in yellow because TPTB thought that his skintone clashed with the teal TNG science uniform.

I always think Data looked cool in the red uniform and they should have used that as he is 3rd officer and it would make more sense that all the main bridge crew were red.

I never really thought of it as 3 divisions though but 5 but just happens that some share colours

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If we're making comparisons to modern navies, it makes no sense that the helmsman is a commissioned officer. If I understand correctly, a helmsman is mid-level enlisted personnel.

That depends, on surface ships the helmsman is typically an able seaman in the merchant navy or an designated seaman or petty officer in the Boatswain's Mate community. So during the TOS/DSC-era this would make sense.

On the other hand, during the ENT and TNG+ era, the helmsman function is also typically shared with the Navigator, which is usually a senior enlisted officer (Chief) or a junior officer (in which case they may be dual-hatted as Conning Officer/Junior Officer of the Watch [2-i-C of the watch team]), so the position being held by an officer (though not generally a member of the senior staff).

I always think Data looked cool in the red uniform and they should have used that as he is 3rd officer and it would make more sense that all the main bridge crew were red.

Second Officer or Third in Command, not third officer.

I think any members of the senior staff that are Bridge Officer qualified wearing "command" makes sense, likewise any other senior officers that stand Duty Officer shifts.

I never really thought of it as 3 divisions though but 5 but just happens that some share colours

There's some basis to that.

I'm something of a fan of red (technicians), yellow (specialists [Security/Intel, Bridge], white [command], green/teal [Sciences], cyan/blue [Medical, Admin and JAG], but YMMV.

 

[at Quark's]

While I can understand "science" to be a separate division (but I wouldn't necessarily group the medical staff in with them), I find the separation between "operations" and "command" a bit weird. Mostly, the "command" types seem to be very much in the same line of work, just in a higher rank. If "operations" were truly only the technical specialists and support crew (i.e. not the redshirts that would go and die on away missions) then it would have made more sense to me.

Then again, as someone remarked, if it works for them , it works. Had Gene been a little more radical and insisted that in the 23rd century, anything resembling a rank structure had been abolished altogether, and Starfleet was run in a completely egalitarian way, we'd have to accept that, too.

 

[The Wormhole]

Eh... Pilots and flight officers are not part of the carrier's crew, they are part of the air wing which is a separate command. They have jobs in their squadron (yes, flying is not their only duty) and normally move up to squadron department head, squadron XO and squadron CO. But they are line officers and can get black shoe experience in their spare time at sea. They can request to be assigned to a carrier for a department head tour. Very few get this assignment but those that do are on the inside track for carrier command.

I thought there was a rule that said a carrier could only be commanded by a pilot, or former pilot. Or am I misremembering/misunderstanding?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I'm always curious why there's a recent trend to separate out Medical and Science, why not Engineering/Operations and Security--they seem a far more diverse set of skills.

I personally break the colours down into:
Red: Administration, Command, Diplomacy, Flight Control, Intelligence, Shuttle Control
Gold: Engineering, Operations, Security, Tactical
Teal: Communications, Counselling, Medical, Science

 

[USS Excelsior]

TOS at least had different symbols on their starfleet symbol to further denote what department they’re in.

But yea TNG should have had at least 6 different colours.

Red for First Officer and up

Yellow for Engineering, Operations, Transporters

Orange for Security

Blue for Science

Green for Medical

Purple for Services including helm

And Admirals like head of security can be in orange too, etc.

 

[Vger23]

It makes sense to me.

The only one that is somewhat questionable is "Command"....but it seems that anyone who is training for higher-level leadership positions had helm/nav jobs as part of their track. You may have other department heads (that are not obviously mapped to Ops or Sciences) in this bucket.

"Operations" makes sense as a broad category. Engineering, Security, Tactical Specialists, Technical or Logistics roles, etc.

"Sciences" also makes sense. Medical Staff, Science specialists, and even ship's councilor (psychology).

Seems pretty reasonable, actually.

 

[mike hill]

It makes sense to me.

The only one that is somewhat questionable is "Command"....but it seems that anyone who is training for higher-level leadership positions had helm/nav jobs as part of their track. You may have other department heads (that are not obviously mapped to Ops or Sciences) in this bucket.

"Operations" makes sense as a broad category. Engineering, Security, Tactical Specialists, Technical or Logistics roles, etc.

"Sciences" also makes sense. Medical Staff, Science specialists, and even ship's councilor (psychology).

Seems pretty reasonable, actually.

Yes, very.
I have to agree that tactical "Command" department skills would be essential for a Captinacy. Other than rare cases - like Crushers medical cruiser or a pure science ship deep inside Federation space, and so far removed from any threats.

 

[J.T.B.]

I thought there was a rule that said a carrier could only be commanded by a pilot, or former pilot. Or am I misremembering/misunderstanding?

Right, a naval aviator (pilot) or a naval flight officer ("in back"). That is the law. In that sense, yes, pilots move up to command positions. But I wanted to make clear that the officers flying the planes and helicopters are not assigned to the carrier; they are not in the line of command for the carrier. They are assigned to a separate command which happens to be located on the carrier. Assignment to a carrier's crew would be a non-flying job for a NA or NFO.

The only one that is somewhat questionable is "Command"....but it seems that anyone who is training for higher-level leadership positions had helm/nav jobs as part of their track. You may have other department heads (that are not obviously mapped to Ops or Sciences) in this bucket.

Yeah, the terminology can be confusing because there are "command" ensigns (or even acting ensigns) who are a long way from taking command of anything, and there are non-command officers like Scotty or Data who actually take command.

 

[mike hill]

Right, a naval aviator (pilot) or a naval flight officer ("in back"). That is the law. In that sense, yes, pilots move up to command positions. But I wanted to make clear that the officers flying the planes and helicopters are not assigned to the carrier; they are not in the line of command for the carrier. They are assigned to a separate command which happens to be located on the carrier. Assignment to a carrier's crew would be a non-flying job for a NA or NFO.



Yeah, the terminology can be confusing because there are "command" ensigns (or even acting ensigns) who are a long way from taking command of anything, and there are non-command officers like Scotty or Data who actually take command.

Imho (for TOS anyway) there is a correlation between "Command" departments and command.

"Command" departments are those focusing on the command, control and tactical actions of the ship.
But they are also the disciplines and experiance needed for a command (Captain or First Officer) role.
YMMV

 

[J.T.B.]

Imho (for TOS anyway) there is a correlation between "Command" departments and command.

"Command" departments are those focusing on the command, control and tactical actions of the ship.
But they are also the disciplines and experiance needed for a command (Captain or First Officer) role.

That's why I said "control" would be a better name than "command." It seems that in Starfleet, like the US Navy, engineering is also a discipline and experience needed for a command role.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

That depends, on surface ships the helmsman is typically an able seaman in the merchant navy or an designated seaman or petty officer in the Boatswain's Mate community. So during the TOS/DSC-era this would make sense.

On the other hand, during the ENT and TNG+ era, the helmsman function is also typically shared with the Navigator, which is usually a senior enlisted officer (Chief) or a junior officer (in which case they may be dual-hatted as Conning Officer/Junior Officer of the Watch [2-i-C of the watch team]), so the position being held by an officer (though not generally a member of the senior staff).



Second Officer or Third in Command, not third officer.

I think any members of the senior staff that are Bridge Officer qualified wearing "command" makes sense, likewise any other senior officers that stand Duty Officer shifts.



There's some basis to that.

I'm something of a fan of red (technicians), yellow (specialists [Security/Intel, Bridge], white [command], green/teal [Sciences], cyan/blue [Medical, Admin and JAG], but YMMV.

You are right of course about second officer.

I think the INS/DS9 uniforms would have looked great with a white undershirt for command. A bit of a call back to the old red movie gear