What would Ground WarFare look like in the 24th Century and beyond?

[Tarek71]

As long as the enemy exists and are still fighting you, you haven't really taken over, you may have Space Superiority, but you haven't done squat about the cancerous enemy that still exists.

Afghanistan is a good example of how neither precision air power nor ground forces might get the job done fully. Resistance can persist for years, even decades. Germany and Japan gave up. But in some cases, forces can fight on, even for generations. Some of the youngest fighting there now were not even born in 2001 when it started. You can pour more troops in, but that does not end it and home populations and political pressures can grow. Maybe it just isnt worth it to continue indefinitely.

You can make threats, but if some fighters think they go to paradise if they die in battle with you, they may not be intimidated by threats. They win or they die. And death is eternal Paradise.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Afghanistan is a good example of how neither precision air power nor ground forces might get the job done fully. Resistance can persist for years, even decades. Germany and Japan gave up. But in some cases, forces can fight on, even for generations. Some of the youngest fighting there now were not even born in 2001 when it started. You can pour more troops in, but that does not end it and home populations and political pressures can grow. Maybe it just isnt worth it to continue indefinitely.

You got to remember that Afghanistan was the UN's most corrupt country before we, the US & Coalition, came in.

It takes MANY MANY years to fix what was the worst country into a functional democracy.

Democracy isn't built over night, it's built through many years of hard work, maybe even decades.

If you give up, and the locals aren't strong enough to withstand the terrorists who dislike our ways, then all your work is washed down the drain.

There are alot of Afghanistani young girls who are getting REAL opportunities for a proper education in STEM, in all the modern ways of life, in knowledge that would've been literally denied to them by the Taliban.

The Taliban would use all the females as effective slaves, breeding vessels, who do house chores and raise children if they get to reinforce their "Old Ways" before we, the US came along and did major damage to their way of life. These women would be denied the ability to even "Read". That's how much power the Taliban has over their women.

Are you going to want to potentially throw all those young Afghani women's lives away because you don't want to spend some extra time, money, man power to help stabilize a government into our Democratic path?

I think it's worth it to help, I think it's noble, correct, and a good long term investment.

I could care less for short term thinking, I value "Long Term" thinking and investments.

Afghanistan is one of those "Untapped Resources". And if in the long term we can help create a democracy there, then I think the work & sacrifices are worth it.

You look at Japan after WW2, we the US helped stabilize and rebuild it through occupation.

Modern Japan wasn't built over night, it took the US decades of occupation and over sight to help reform Japan.

Yugoslavia was another country where we the US in our UN led coalition dethroned Slobadan Milosevic (sp?). The UN occupied it and took control of the local area after the war was over. It took a while, but now the area has many functioning democratically valued countries after the breakup of old Yugoslavia.

Right now, we're on the precipice of another Democratic Country in danger.
The CCP (Chinese Communist Party) is constantly threatening to invade Taiwan.
Look what they did to Hong Kong with it's new "National Security Laws".

If the CCP invades, the US better come in and defend, or else you lose another Democratic Country to the CCP's Iron Fist.

You can make threats, but if some fighters think they go to paradise if they die in battle with you, they may not be intimidated by threats. They win or they die. And death is eternal Paradise.

And this is where the education of the local populace comes in. Instead of interpreting the Quoran literally, just educate them on interpreting it as a series of morality lessons and educate them on modern ways of life. Helping out society evolve into modern western ways is worth it IMO.

Don't let the old guard, the extremists take hold.

Look at the Vulcans, they stuck around with us Humans, and eventually down the road, we humanity were the glue that helped form the UFP.

But before that, the Vulcans stuck around with us Humans for decades on end.

 

[dupersuper]

In my Head Canon, StarFleet is 1/2 Military, 1/2 Exploration Arm.

In mine it was 90-some% exploration, then the Borg kept attacking and The Dominion War came...

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

In mine it was 90-some% exploration, then the Borg kept attacking and The Dominion War came...

In my Head Cannon, it takes the chronological events of all Star Trek Live Action TV series & Movie events and moves the setting to the start of the 26th century on Earth Date: 2501/01-01 Sat 00:00;00.0 GMT

My section of the Star Trek Universe takes place ~122 years from the end of (2379 “Star Trek Nemesis”)

ALOT has changed in that time in my part of Head Cannon/In Universe Lore.

 

[Timo]

As long as the enemy exists and are still fighting you, you haven't really taken over, you may have Space Superiority, but you haven't done squat about the cancerous enemy that still exists.

But I would have won. That is, my conquest surely has an aim. If the aim is to subdue the planet, then the enemy is irrelevant as long as the planet is subdued. They can fight empty air as much as they want to, and murder their own kind in impotent rage. Except they will die of that, in the scenarios I outlined, by the hand of an enemy they cannot touch.

Marginalizing the enemy is the true tactical goal, unless you subscribe to a zero-tolerance, genocidal approach (nuke the babies, it is the only way to be sure). And the absolute best way to marginalize is to refuse to fight. Just skip that and go straight for the win.

Cancerous is probably smack on - we all have cancer, in insignificant amounts that our body can handle on its own. If the planet retains twenty-two freaks who didn't die despite failing to register at the yielding office, and they on occasion murder a family here and another there, I have won, and they have lost.

If we wanted a planet for ourselves that has ___ characteristics, I'm sure there are plenty in our own Milky Way Galaxy that doens't require fighting other people/locals over it, we wouldn't have gone all the way to this planet with potential opposition just for the sake of a challenge.

So what alternate motivation do you propose? That the UFP goes out in search of fights with people specifically, because it wants those people dead, subdued, or given comeuppance?

No, the fights must be over characteristics. One of those being location; having a dilithium source far behind the lines of the Empire of E'Valh is no good when you need the resource, so you take it from the Nearbians instead. Or, if the UFP must be seen as saints, you take it back from the Nearbians who naughtily stole your mining colony from you.

UFP/StarFleet is here to help. So your ideas of "Mass Murder", "Deportation schemes of varying lengths" are never going to happen.

But they would if Starfleet sent in ground troops and insisted that they eliminate resistance. The alternative would be defeat (although that is always an option even with sending the troops, too).

In comparison, in a civilized blackmail scheme, nobody but the stupid and the suicidal would die. And none of yours would, period.

We will get what we want by getting rid of their problem / our opposition and keep the peace until the locals can handle things on their own by training their own locally formed military and police, then let them handle themselves by handing back control gradually as we watch over them for their own safety.

...It's sorta hilarious that this has never worked ITRW.

What works better is siding with the problem, pardoning all but a token few of the Nazis, coopting the local authorities, eliminating resistance on the sole basis of it being resistance instead of it somehow being "their problem". For all we know, this might be Starfleet's way, too. Or the way of some other Trek player.

It's not the Dominion way, though, FWIW.

We will work together to make things better and to find a agreement that we can all be amicable to.

...Says Weyoun to the smart majority that has gracefully yielded to the blackmail scheme.

Sure, some Starfleet Admiral who just sent troops to the streets might say that, too. But somebody in the audience would probably pull a gun and cut him short. At the neck.

That kind of threat sounds very "Dominion-ish". I don't partake to that kind of behavior or use of leverage.

When the alternative is gunning down people with phaser rifles and proton grenades, I wonder why not?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

But I would have won. That is, my conquest surely has an aim. If the aim is to subdue the planet, then the enemy is irrelevant as long as the planet is subdued. They can fight empty air as much as they want to, and murder their own kind in impotent rage. Except they will die of that, in the scenarios I outlined, by the hand of an enemy they cannot touch.

I guess that's how you prefer to operate. To each his own, but I don't subscribe to "Black Mail" or conditional survival.

Marginalizing the enemy is the true tactical goal, unless you subscribe to a zero-tolerance, genocidal approach (nuke the babies, it is the only way to be sure). And the absolute best way to marginalize is to refuse to fight. Just skip that and go straight for the win.

Again, no genocide is happening, wow you're sounding more evil by the minute. Yeah, orbital lock down, that really sounds like your cup of tea.

Cancerous is probably smack on - we all have cancer, in insignificant amounts that our body can handle on its own. If the planet retains twenty-two freaks who didn't die despite failing to register at the yielding office, and they on occasion murder a family here and another there, I have won, and they have lost.

And the victims of the families who were murdered are just another statistic, eh? You don't care as long as you get what you want.

So what alternate motivation do you propose? That the UFP goes out in search of fights with people specifically, because it wants those people dead, subdued, or given comeuppance?

No, UFP doesn't go out searching for fight with people specifically, you've watched this show long enough to know that StarFleet generally stumbles into trouble or trouble finds them. Usually not the other way around. The UFP generally only goes after people if they violated the law within our territory, otherwise it's more reactive than proactive by nature.

But they would if Starfleet sent in ground troops and insisted that they eliminate resistance. The alternative would be defeat (although that is always an option even with sending the troops, too).

You only send in troops if you have to, not because you do it for the sake of it.

In comparison, in a civilized blackmail scheme, nobody but the stupid and the suicidal would die. And none of yours would, period.

Ah yes, UFP/StarFleet into Black Mailing? That's not characteristic of the UFP/StarFleet.

...It's sorta hilarious that this has never worked ITRW.

What works better is siding with the problem, pardoning all but a token few of the Nazis, coopting the local authorities, eliminating resistance on the sole basis of it being resistance instead of it somehow being "their problem". For all we know, this might be Starfleet's way, too. Or the way of some other Trek player.

I think that's more of your way of problem solving.

...Says Weyoun to the smart majority that has gracefully yielded to the blackmail scheme.

Sure, some Starfleet Admiral who just sent troops to the streets might say that, too. But somebody in the audience would probably pull a gun and cut him short. At the neck.

Wow, you reall love to Black Mail folks, don't you.

When the alternative is gunning down people with phaser rifles and proton grenades, I wonder why not?

Hurting people isn't the first option. Negotiation, talks, working things out is always preferable over using force. But force has to exist as a last resort.

I don't believe in Black Mailing, that's just morally reprehensible.

I'm surprised you like that idea so much.

 

[Tarek71]

It all depends on the circumstances. I don't see the Feds threatening genocide in any case. Conventional warfare is a lot less bloody then resorting to genocidal mass extinction. And using genocidal means would not only make the user an outlaw, rogue regime, it could only be done to substantially inferior opponents who cannot hit back.

Any serious peer, or near-peer, adversary could hit back, and inflict genocides on your colonies, outposts, bases and home worlds. If they are not capable of hitting any of your outposts, colonies or worlds, then they are no threat to you and there is no reason to engage them at all. Leave them alone.

None of this establishes anything about whether ground forces would be used or not used. They certainly would be needed in any future century.

 

[Tarek71]

You got to remember that Afghanistan was the UN's most corrupt country before we, the US & Coalition, came in.....

While there are many arguments for and against remaining militarily engaged in Afghanistan and elsewhere, the issue here was about conventional ground forces in the future. What we have seen is that neither precision air strike (which some posters mistakenly believe will eliminate the need for ground forces) nor ground forces, nor the both combined, will always get the job done. The Afghanistan Papers tell a long tale of deception, and of shifting, failed and conflicting goals and strategies over nearly two decades. It is a long, sad tale of Woe.

For our purposes, it's enough to show that each individual situation will vary greatly. Whether troops are right, or just strikes or both or neither. It's going to be a case by case situation.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

For our purposes, it's enough to show that each individual situation will vary greatly. Whether troops are right, or just strikes or both or neither. It's going to be a case by case situation.

Don't forget that Telepaths will greatly change ground warfare.

 

[Tarek71]

If telepaths existed they would change everything, not just warfare. Blocking them would a priority. Assuming that there is some sort of comprehensible physics in operation with that, some way of blocking, confusing, tricking, overloading or otherwise interfering with the telepaths should be doable.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If telepaths existed they would change everything, not just warfare. Blocking them would a priority. Assuming that there is some sort of comprehensible physics in operation with that, some way of blocking, confusing, tricking, overloading or otherwise interfering with the telepaths should be doable.

The Betazoids are already telepaths, so there role in the military would be invaluable, even if it's not in the front line.

Vulcans with their touch telepathy still functions and Vulcans can still communicate with other telepaths without touch.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Telepathy

And there are mechanical devices that can communicate via telepathy along with telepathic jammers.

 

[Tarek71]

Yes, they do exist in the Trekverse. I was speaking from the perspective of our world. Yes, there would be attempts to use them everywhere. Particularly in espionage. But every kind of warfare, they would be useful. Though that threat would stimulate ways of blocking their ability, and identifying persons who are.

 

[Leathco]

I think we have to look at WHY a war is fought. Typically, it's one of two reasons. The first is a conflict of beliefs. The second is control over resources. If it's the first one, what point is it to "claim" the planet when the people below will likely continue as they always have? In the second, you MUST have a ground presence. There's even precedence for this: the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. The claimed the planets resources, even constructing a space station to refine some of those resources, and than left once the planets remaining resources weren't worth the hassle of dealing with the home species. Also, destroying the Bajoran species as a whole would have eliminated a work force that could be forced to do a job no Cardassian wished to do, plus would have earned the ire of more than the Federation (the Klingons would likely see such an act as dishonorable.)

Speaking of Klingons, they would wish to conquer the species and subjugate them, not just claim a planet for glory and honor. That glory comes from combat, and bringing your opponent to heel. It's obvious why they would invade groundside, and likely even prefer it to space combat.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If it's the first one, what point is it to "claim" the planet when the people below will likely continue as they always have?

As far as "StarFleet" & "The UFP" is concerned, they won't be fighting because of your first reason, that's for sure. "The UFP" is supposed to tolerate just about anybody out there. So fighting over "Beliefs" isn't happening.

 

[Leathco]

As far as "StarFleet" & "The UFP" is concerned, they won't be fighting because of your first reason, that's for sure. "The UFP" is supposed to tolerate just about anybody out there. So fighting over "Beliefs" isn't happening.

I gotta disagree here. The ENTIRE Dominion war arc was a war over beliefs. The founders didn't believe that solids could be peaceful with them. While the Federation attempted a peaceful resolution, the only one offered by the dominion was to subjugate the solids of the Alpha quadrant. The Federation didn't belief this to be an option. Thus, war. Just because one side can be tolerant doesn't mean the other side can be.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I gotta disagree here. The ENTIRE Dominion war arc was a war over beliefs. The founders didn't believe that solids could be peaceful with them. While the Federation attempted a peaceful resolution, the only one offered by the dominion was to subjugate the solids of the Alpha quadrant. The Federation didn't belief this to be an option. Thus, war. Just because one side can be tolerant doesn't mean the other side can be.

Ok, a few rare exceptions when the UFP / StarFleet's existence is on the line.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

As far as "StarFleet" & "The UFP" is concerned, they won't be fighting because of your first reason, that's for sure. "The UFP" is supposed to tolerate just about anybody out there. So fighting over "Beliefs" isn't happening.

If you clarify that to Starfleet/the Federation starting a war over "beliefs", that's reasonably consistent with the available evidence.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If you clarify that to Starfleet/the Federation starting a war over "beliefs", that's reasonably consistent with the available evidence.

Thank You for the assist in making my point.

 

[Leathco]

If you clarify that to Starfleet/the Federation starting a war over "beliefs", that's reasonably consistent with the available evidence.

Honestly. it's rare that we see Starfleet starting a war at all. I struggle to think of a single time. Even the Xindi situation was in response to an attack. And even that could be a belief difference (the Xindi believing that humans needed to be exterminated. and humanity obviously disagreeing).

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So, do you guys see most ground soldiers in basic armor like we have today, or some form of powered armor in the future, closer to Iron-Man?

Or some weird mixture in between.