Lt. Mary Sue on Lower Decks series

[Charles Phipps]

The leg stab isn't taken seriously at all and neither is punching some random alien or shoving some energy being into the jars. So it doesn't seem like that's the perspective that the show is really presenting. We'll see if they ever get to develop that but 2 eps in the character is grating

Of course not, it's a wacky comedy. And screw ups like all the ones she does will have minimum consequences. Sort of like the Zombie Apocalypse will never have any consequences.

This is the format.

That doesn't mean we're not to assume she isn't as much a screw up as the others. Its just she's very confidant in her opinions (that seem very wrong half the time).

 

[fireproof78]

I think my issue is, "I have no idea what you're talking about." The depiction you're getting of Mariner is that she's a hero and the lead while the impression I've got from the show is she's an outrageous f*** up.

Exactly.

 

[Makarov]

Drop her in TNG, DS9, Voyager cast instead of putting her next to the dumb guy, she’s just the Ro or Paris of the cast.

Drop her into Voyager she would be similar to Paris as the cocky pilot with an attitude, but instead of forming a friendship with Harry Kim, be a complete asshole to him and succeed everywhere he fails. Even have to fake a mistake in order to make the guy feel better.

Or drop her into TNG in Ro's position instead of some debatable scenes clashing with Riker on conforming to Starfleet protocol, they would just have Riker portrayed as dumb/wrong in every scene.

Yeah we are only 2 episodes in, but both of those examples Paris/Ro had those layers established in their first episodes. At least Wesley got told to shut up early in the season

 

[1001001]

I believe the whole concept of a "Mary Sue" is sexist on its face.

To the degree that it applies to any character, it certainly does not apply to Mariner.

 

[BillJ]

Drop her into Voyager she would be similar to Paris as the cocky pilot with an attitude, but instead of forming a friendship with Harry Kim, be a complete asshole to him and succeed everywhere he fails. Even have to fake a mistake in order to make the guy feel better.

And Voyager is likely a more memorable with that dynamic in play.

Or drop her into TNG in Ro's position instead of some debatable scenes clashing with Riker on conforming to Starfleet protocol, they would just have Riker portrayed as dumb/wrong in every scene.

Riker was a pretty poor character to begin with.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Some of you can be so exhausting with this Mary Sue shit. Man does it get old.

What? There's nothing chauvinistic or piggish about two female characters who also happen to be black, being criticised for stuff that would be 100% okey dokey ok if it was done by a white male. Like what are you even talking about? *laugh-snorts in neckbeard*

 

[Makarov]

And Voyager is likely a more memorable with that dynamic in play.



Riker was a pretty poor character to begin with.

That's good then because if that is how you feel about those series and characters then Lower Decks is right your alley.

 

[Skipper]

A very simple question. Has it happened at least once in history, at least once, in which this term was given to a female character and everyone was more or less in agreement? Once?

If the answer is no, then it's time to bury this stupid term once and for all and never use it again, because it reveals so much more about who uses it than the character.

 

[BillJ]

That's good then because if that is how you feel about those series and characters then Lower Decks is right your alley.

I'm just part of the lowly ignorant masses. Someday I hope to be smart like you. Probably start with having my sense of humor removed.

 

[Makarov]

I'm just part of the lowly ignorant masses. Someday I hope to be smart like you. Probably start with having my sense of humor removed.

If you don't take issue then that is genuinely a good thing, trying to respect a difference of opinion sarcasm was not my intention..

 

[BillJ]

If you don't take issue then that is genuinely a good thing, trying to respect a difference of opinion sarcasm was not my intention..

No harm, no foul. We all get a little snarky now and then.

 

[chrinFinity]

A very simple question. Has it happened at least once in history, at least once, in which this term was given to a female character and everyone was more or less in agreement? Once?

If the answer is no, then it's time to bury this stupid term once and for all and never use it again, because it reveals so much more about who uses it than the character.

I believe that Diane Carey wrote some female characters in early Pocket Books Trek novels who were pretty universally panned as Mary Sue. It's meant to be a criticism of obvious self-insert author characters (of any gender, not just female) who are only superhuman because the world bends to their successes.

It's a term also regularly applied uncontroversially against some bad fanfic OCs.

The underlying concept isn't sexist on its face (other than the primary trope being named for women), because it's not meant to be applied in an uneven way across genders. But in practice, it is and it has been, particularly when it is misapplied due to white boy rage, as it has been (in my opinion) in the case of Mariner and Burnham.

 

[Blamo]

The term Mary Sue has been misused so much over the past few decades that it has lost it's usefulness. It just doesn't mean anything anymore. The only thing I can get from the use of the term "Mary Sue" is that the person using it doesn't like a certain female character.

It's gone from "overly perfect author-avatar, used in a fanfiction where they surpass the canon characters" to "female character with some degree of competence."

 

[137th Gebirg]

I believe that Diane Carey wrote some female characters in early Pocket Books Trek novels who were pretty universally panned as Mary Sue. It's meant to be a criticism of obvious self-insert author characters (of any gender, not just female) who are only superhuman because the world bends to their successes.

I found Timothy Zahn’s Star Wars trilogy books to fall in this category with his treatment of Grand Admiral Thrawn. An extremely interesting character to be sure, but there were far too many instances I can remember where he was, like, studying and the different colored spots on some ancient piece of artwork from a long extinct species, which he used time and again to somehow successfully determine where the Millennium Falcon was going next. It started getting frustrating and highly unbelievable when it happened way too often. This was nearly 30 years ago when I first read the Zahn trilogy, and my memory is fuzzy on details. This was long before I ever heard the term “Mary Sue”, but I think in this case and context, Thrawn fits.

Star Wars Rebels handled the character much better, IMO.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I found Timothy Zahn’s Star Wars trilogy books to fall in this category with his treatment of Grand Admiral Thrawn. An extremely interesting character to be sure, but there were far too many instances I can remember where he was, like, studying and the different colored spots on some ancient piece of artwork from a long extinct species, which he used time and again to somehow successfully determine where the Millennium Falcon was going next. It started getting frustrating and highly unbelievable when it happened way too often. This was nearly 30 years ago when I first read the Zahn trilogy, and my memory is fuzzy on details. This was long before I ever heard the term “Mary Sue”, but I think in this case and context, Thrawn fits.

Star Wars Rebels handled the character much better, IMO.

No, because Thrawn is a villain and they're SUPPOSED to be super-talented at everything.

Then Thrawn became Zahn's self insert.



I also assert Corran Horn as a Gary Stu.

 

[TrickyDickie]

I recall, from the Pocket guidelines for submissions from new authors (circa 1984), that a Mary Sue was a previously unknown character, male or female, who appeared as a one-shot guest and upstaged all of the regular, main characters, with knowledge / abilities that no one else had, etc.

Before the start of Discovery, we were told that Michael Burnham would be the focus. That does not make her a Mary Sue.

A significant percentage of TOS was devoted to Kirk-centered stories. That doesn't make him a Mary Sue, either.

Who knows how many other people in-universe may have had, as individuals, just as much of a hand in as many significant events as a Michael Burnham or a Jim Kirk....we have simply viewed things from a certain focus, as presented.

Also, skill and luck are often very difficult to separate. Sometimes, timing is the critical factor as to whether things go well or not. One could say that Kirk had plenty of skill, but he also happened to have plenty of luck....until Veridian III.

And so it is with others as well.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The term Mary Sue has been misused so much over the past few decades that it has lost it's usefulness. It just doesn't mean anything anymore. The only thing I can get from the use of the term "Mary Sue" is that the person using it doesn't like a certain female character.

That and "She makes me uncomfortable".

 

[Charles Phipps]

To be fair, plenty of Chris Pine Kirk criticisms say he's a Gary Stu. "He's now the sex machine rebel!"

But it's a weak insult either way and yes very often used against women or POC women aggressively.

 

[fireproof78]

be fair, plenty of Chris Pine Kirk criticisms say he's a Gary Stu. "He's now the sex machine rebel!"

The term fits there about as well as with Mariner or Burnham.

 

[Charles Phipps]

The term fits there about as well as with Mariner or Burnham.

Well I like those two.