RDM's Battlestar Galactica

[The Wormhole]

Staying on the subject of the military side, the MACO's were equipped for military operations but when in for instance in DS9, Starfleet personnel were involved in military operations as well as going into warzones but didn't have any body armour. Starfleet didn't want to be associated as a military organisation but considering armour has been part of martial philosophy since the dawn of time, it didn't make sense that Starfleet personal not to have them?

Saying "Starfleet isn't a military" doesn't excuse their lack of common sense. If they feel it's necessary to arm their personnel, they should feel it necessary to give their personnel some sort of body armour. Especially on DS9 where we do see dedicated infantry personnel in Nor the Battle to the Strong or The Siege of AR-558.

This is something which Disco has corrected, at least.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Staying on the subject of the military side, the MACO's were equipped for military operations but when in for instance in DS9, Starfleet personnel were involved in military operations as well as going into warzones

Despite both being called 'Starfleet', they are different organizations.

The Earth Starfleet from ENT is not military (hence the MACOS), but the Federation Starfleet is.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Saying "Starfleet isn't a military" doesn't excuse their lack of common sense. If they feel it's necessary to arm their personnel, they should feel it necessary to give their personnel some sort of body armour. Especially on DS9 where we do see dedicated infantry personnel in Nor the Battle to the Strong or The Siege of AR-558.

This is something which Disco has corrected, at least.

What always irked me was their inability to find cover in a firefight, sometimes standing in the middle of the corridors, shooting their phasers randomly while some invading force on the ship easily mowed them down (while hiding behind hallway intersections, smartly). I mean, yeah, fine, we can indulge the "not military" conceit only so far, but when it comes to self-preservation instinct, how and when did Starfleet personnel become so... inadequate?

 

[TopperHenly]

What always irked me was their inability to find cover in a firefight, sometimes standing in the middle of the corridors, shooting their phasers randomly while some invading force on the ship easily mowed them down (while hiding behind hallway intersections, smartly). I mean, yeah, fine, we can indulge the "not military" conceit only so far, but when it comes to self-preservation instinct, how and when did Starfleet personnel become so... inadequate?

I've only got into Star Trek recently but I always remember one of the running jokes against the franchise was about how it was always the most insignificant crew member that was killed in the away missions. Having watched most of the series in the franchise, there is a valid point about that. Even though the emphasis in most of the individual series that the ships crew contained members with security rather than military training, you would expect them to have some form of armour and close quarter combat training much like our civilian police forces have.

 

[137th Gebirg]

You would think, yes, but instead they consistently show cordwood red shirts lining up for the slaughter every time the ship is invaded. It's almost insulting to think that we should somehow accept this as any kind of realistic reaction to a security breach. Sure, no-named security personnel also got clipped with impunity in BSG, but at least they made it look a bit more convincing.

 

[JD]

Staying on the subject of the military side, the MACO's were equipped for military operations but when in for instance in DS9, Starfleet personnel were involved in military operations as well as going into warzones but didn't have any body armour. Starfleet didn't want to be associated as a military organisation but considering armour has been part of martial philosophy since the dawn of time, it didn't make sense that Starfleet personal not to have them?

The security officers in the TOS movie had body armor, but I think that was the only time we ever saw anything like that.

Just watched a British show called Humans on Amazon, that dealt with this very notion. 3 seasons, but cancelled early, unfortunately. It really delved into the psychological effects of AI on humans and what might happen if the AI’s started becoming self-aware and the moral implications of such an evolution. It was quite a believable scenario, how they portrayed it - and, yeah, it got serious dark. Really wish it continued.

They showed that on AMC here in the US shortly after it aired in the UK. I watched the first two or three episodes and enjoyed it, but like a lot of stuff, just lost track of it after that.

 

[TopperHenly]

You would think, yes, but instead they consistently show cordwood red shirts lining up for the slaughter every time the ship is invaded. It's almost insulting to think that we should somehow accept this as any kind of realistic reaction to a security breach. Sure, no-named security personnel also got clipped with impunity in BSG, but at least they made it look a bit more convincing.

In nuBSG, the Cylons had a tactic of boarding ships, fighting to designated points then blowing the airlocks, killing all humans on boards. If the Cylons encountered a StarFleet ship, they would just wait for wave after wave of red shirts to come and blast them to kingdom come. There must really have been attrition rate of Starfleet ship staff. How did they keep the ranks filled? Impressment?

While I am more forgiving of minor inconsistencies in series and there was a certain charm of the gung ho antics in TOS, it does become a bit annoying in later series. Thankfully Enterprise fixed that with Security seen to get proper CQC training but even still you would think that starships would at least have critical areas like the bridge and engineering hardened to stop enemy combatants teleporting there as well as sensors to automatically throw up shields to trap enemy combatants when teleporting into other areas.

 

[TopperHenly]

One thing I just remembered about nuBSG is how individuals were thrust into positions by fate that they would never have normally achieved and how they excelled at it. Obvious examples is Roslin the school teacher becoming president and washed out Adama becoming admiral of the fleet. More subtle ones is Starbuck in the first season having to step back from a more hands on role in military operations to one of leadership and responsibility for the lives under her command.

The closest I think that ST came to that was in Voyager. I didn't watch that much of that and from what I saw of it, there wasn't that immediacy of people getting thrown into roles outside of their comfort zone and either sinking or swimming in it. I appreciate that there wasn't that the characters in the other ST series didn't experience the societal change that those on nuBSG experienced that forced these change but it felt like normal career progression apart from outsiders like Ro and Barclay in TNG.

 

[137th Gebirg]

In nuBSG, the Cylons had a tactic of boarding ships, fighting to designated points then blowing the airlocks, killing all humans on boards. If the Cylons encountered a StarFleet ship, they would just wait for wave after wave of red shirts to come and blast them to kingdom come. There must really have been attrition rate of Starfleet ship staff. How did they keep the ranks filled? Impressment?

While I am more forgiving of minor inconsistencies in series and there was a certain charm of the gung ho antics in TOS, it does become a bit annoying in later series. Thankfully Enterprise fixed that with Security seen to get proper CQC training but even still you would think that starships would at least have critical areas like the bridge and engineering hardened to stop enemy combatants teleporting there as well as sensors to automatically throw up shields to trap enemy combatants when teleporting into other areas.

The one thing in favor of Starfleet in this case is technological superiority over the Cylons. As far as I know, neither the Colonials nor Cylons had shield tech - armor only. Some well-placed shots from focused phaser batteries would weaken their hulls, followed up by a couple of quantum torpedoes to fly into the exposed interior - crack those fat bastards in half. Ideally, it would never get to the point where repel borders ever became necessary.

But yes, if the Cylons ever did find a way to get on board, they would definitely have the advantage. If they went farther to figure out a way to do-opt the ship’s computers, that would definitely finish the Feds off.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

The one thing in favor of Starfleet in this case is technological superiority over the Cylons. As far as I know, neither the Colonials nor Cylons had shield tech - armor only. Some well-placed shots from focused phaser batteries would weaken their hulls, followed up by a couple of quantum torpedoes to fly into the exposed interior - crack those fat bastards in half. Ideally, it would never get to the point where repel borders ever became necessary.

But yes, if the Cylons ever did find a way to get on board, they would definitely have the advantage. If they went farther to figure out a way to do-opt the ship’s computers, that would definitely finish the Feds off.

Basestars couldn't even go toe to toe with a Battlestar in close range combat, I doubt they would last more then a few minutes against a phaser barrage and even less against even one photon torpedo.

I doubt they'd be able to do too much damage even if they did manage to board the ship. It took the Borg hours to try and take the Enterprise in First Contact. The Cylons are much less advanced.

 

[The Doctor]

I'm rewatching and just finished 'Flight of the Phoenix.'

nuBSG was the show that show me that we all didn't have to settle for less. That we could have genre shows with space battles and robots that was also smart, emotionally and compelling. It remains the best science fiction series shown on television and cemented Ronald D. Moore as someone whose work I will always tune in for. Hell, his weekly podcast commentary tracks for the show were at least half the reason I tuned in, they were incredibly open and transparent about his process, what he liked (and didn't) about each episode and showed just how much RDM cared about getting it right.

Also, the finale was perfect and frak anyone who still bitches about 'And they have a plan.'

 

[137th Gebirg]

Well, alrighty then!

 

[diankra]

I've only got into Star Trek recently but I always remember one of the running jokes against the franchise was about how it was always the most insignificant crew member that was killed in the away missions. Having watched most of the series in the franchise, there is a valid point about that. Even though the emphasis in most of the individual series that the ships crew contained members with security rather than military training, you would expect them to have some form of armour and close quarter combat training much like our civilian police forces have.

As the joke goes, a redshirt and a stormtrooper get into a fight.
The stormtrooper misses, but the red shirt dies anyway.

 

[The Wormhole]

As the joke goes, a redshirt and a stormtrooper get into a fight.
The stormtrooper misses, but the red shirt dies anyway.

An oldie but a goodie.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Basestars couldn't even go toe to toe with a Battlestar in close range combat, I doubt they would last more then a few minutes against a phaser barrage and even less against even one photon torpedo.

I doubt they'd be able to do too much damage even if they did manage to board the ship. It took the Borg hours to try and take the Enterprise in First Contact. The Cylons are much less advanced.

Cylons tended to rely on surprise attacks and overwhelming numbers. Which was a decent strategy given that they could resurrect the Raiders, while the death of a single Colonial pilot was a major impact for them. But in an one on one fight, Battlestars would win. But that's exactly what it was designed to do.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Cylons tended to rely on surprise attacks and overwhelming numbers. Which was a decent strategy given that they could resurrect the Raiders, while the death of a single Colonial pilot was a major impact for them. But in an one on one fight, Battlestars would win. But that's exactly what it was designed to do.

I'd say that the Cylons relied too heavily on the Raiders. Both the battle of the Tylium asteroid and the Battle of the Resurrection ship showed how easily cylon raider squadrons could be distracted from defending their air base/basestars and how quickly raider squadrons could be broken up even with the colonials operating with inferior numbers. The Raiders while having the ability to learn and resurrect, behaved like animals operating on predator instinct and showing little ability to think tactically like a human.

The Cylon's biological technology while technologically superior was tactically inferior and worked against them, which is why I think they resorted to the infiltrating the colonial mainframe.

 

[Marc]

The Cylon's biological technology while technologically superior was tactically inferior and worked against them, which is why I think they resorted to the infiltrating the colonial mainframe.

I don't think the Cylons would have ever thought of jumping a capital ship into a planetary atmosphere...

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I don't think the Cylons would have ever thought of jumping a capital ship into a planetary atmosphere...

They had a hard enough time landing a raider.

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[Noname Given]

They had a hard enough time landing a raider.

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^^^^
The only good scene from Galactica 1980.

 

[TopperHenly]

I'd say that the Cylons relied too heavily on the Raiders. Both the battle of the Tylium asteroid and the Battle of the Resurrection ship showed how easily cylon raider squadrons could be distracted from defending their air base/basestars and how quickly raider squadrons could be broken up even with the colonials operating with inferior numbers. The Raiders while having the ability to learn and resurrect, behaved like animals operating on predator instinct and showing little ability to think tactically like a human.

The Cylon's biological technology while technologically superior was tactically inferior and worked against them, which is why I think they resorted to the infiltrating the colonial mainframe.

The Cylon raiders were sentient. They bore the heaviest loses but had no say in any of military decisions that affected them. It is hardly surprising that they turned to the Cylon religion that taken up by the Centurions and some of the Cylon models that caused the civil war in the later part of the series.