Production Quality Of Picard

[Nightdiamond]

I don't agree.

With Worf, Picard reprimanded him because he followed his desire for vengeance while still a commissioned Starfleet officer; killing Duras was both a violation of Starfleet military law and represented a Federation officer interfering with internal Klingon politics at a time when the Federation was trying to maintain its neutrality. Had Worf resigned his commission before killing Duras, I don't think Picard would have reprimanded him.

Agreed. Duty wise, Picard really had no choice.

Similarly, with Ro, Picard didn't necessarily have personal animus towards Maquis members; he was sympathetic to their desire to protect their homes from Cardassian militias. Picard's issue with Ro was that he and Ro had taken an oath as Starfleet officers to obey and carry out lawful orders. Picard viewed Ro's decision as an act of betrayal because she did it while under oath as an officer. Had she resigned her oath, then joined the Maquis, I doubt he would have felt as betrayed.

True, but, one problem is that we see too much of Ro's point of view already to automatically understand Picard's position. We heard how the Cardassians poisoned their replicators. We saw them mow down and kill innocent colonists as a terrorist tactic. Apparently the Federation isn't really going to do anything about it.

So we see Picard calmly and eagerly discussing luring the Maquis into a trap. He seems a little un-sympathetic to what Ro might have seen.

Even after he asks her if she wants out, he then reminds her if she backs out, she'll be throwing everything away, and then threatened to have her court martial-ed if he finds out Ro lied to him.

So at this point, (maybe to us, the audience) Picard really seems out of touch with whats going on. Like he's all duty, and no context.

At the end, after, after he learns she went AWOL, Picard has that look, of utter disappointment and moral indignation--he can't even talk, he's so upset. When Starfleet and the Federation pulled back and refused to help the Romulans resettle, it was arguably immoral, but it was also a legal decision.

So seeing Picard publicly condemn Starfleet and then resign because he was following his conscience, and yet refused to understand why Ro left Starfleet to follow hers for the same type of reasoning-- is there an element of hypocrisy there.

He got angry at her because she killed a lifeform unlike any other known to exist, and did so when it seemed as though establishing communication with that lifeform was a possibility. They did not know with any certainty that the Crystalline Entity understood that it was murdering sentient beings; the possibility existed that the Entity did not realize and did not intend to kill sentient beings, and until such possibility is ruled out, murdering the Entity for something she did not know with certainty that it knew to be immoral, was itself immoral.

I actually believe Picard was technically right. But his delivery -- using Sperm Whales and cuttlefish as a direct analogy to what happened with the human colonists- as well as suggesting the Crystaline Entity had just as much a right to exist as they did-- it seriously damaged his argument.

We saw too much of Dr. Marr's (and Riker's ) point of view already, how it killed billions, so when we see Picard's literal eagerness to communicate with it, it comes off as dangerously out of touch, at least to some viewers.

And the same with Bjayzl. She did something despicable, and would likely get away with it, yet Picard would rather Seven spared her.

Are these examples of some type of toxic morality, where evil things are allowed to continue because of a reluctance to use violence to stop it?

 

[fireproof78]

Dont know why it comes to scoring points or bashing eachother viewpoints. Everyone can take from Trek whatever they want and expect whatever they want from the shows, that's their opinion.

I don't see it as scoring points. However, if there is a point of view I find confusing then I'm going to highlight my confusion. For instance, the insistence that Picard is somehow showing humans differently. I disagree with that point largely because I can find instances of humans doing what was done in Picard.

I don't expect anyone to get what I get out of Picard but I'll also not sit there and pretend that Picard has somehow forever damaged the Trek brand, or the characters.

ETA: More so, I find myself deeply troubled by the complete lack of empathy for Seven in this instance. Apparently the torturer and murderer of somehow deserves more empathy?

This is all extremely confusing.

But, what do I know? I'm just an unevolved 21st century human.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It's kind of insane that we see characters following the Prime Directive, who are capable of calmly allowing an entire innocent population to be killed by a disaster, but individual wise, will plead for the life of a sadist/murderer, because taking the law into your hands is an outdated form of justice.

I'm probably overstating this, but when you compare some of TNG's moral ideology or rules of behavior against other Treks or real life itself, it starts looking weird.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm probably overstating this, but when you compare some of TNG's moral ideology or rules of behavior against other Treks or real life itself, it starts looking weird.

Extremely weird.

 

[JamesRye]

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[Makarov]

ETA: More so, I find myself deeply troubled by the complete lack of empathy for Seven in this instance.

It's possible to empathize with a character without making it a reason to excuse their actions, just like Maxwell and O'Brien.

 

[fireproof78]

It's possible to empathize with a character without making it a reason to excuse their actions, just like Maxwell and O'Brien.

Thus far I have yet to see it in this thread. Just a list of "Well, they should have done this"-all logic and no emotion.

Seven was wrong in her actions but in the moment I appreciated her position, and can see how it could be justified.

 

[Makarov]

Both Seven and the crystalline mom had strong reasons for revenge yeah. Riker is interesting in that he has reasons for revenge but sets them aside.

I think Picard would have taken down Bjayzel and the Crystalline entity if it came to it and they attacked.

 

[fireproof78]

Both Seven and the crystalline mom had strong reasons for revenge yeah. Riker is interesting in that he has reasons for revenge but sets them aside.

I think Picard would have taken down Bjayzel and the Crystalline entity if it came to it and they attacked.

We know what Picard would have done since we saw what he could be pushed to in First Contact.

 

[Kpnuts]

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Better designs? check.

Better framing and camera angles? check.

Nice variety of ships to add interest to the scene? check.

Actually being able to make out any details on the ships? check.

 

[AlanC9]

So seeing Picard publicly condemn Starfleet and then resign because he was following his conscience, and yet refused to understand why Ro left Starfleet to follow hers for the same type of reasoning-- is there an element of hypocrisy there.

Since Picard condemning Starfleet happens later, maybe Picard came around to Ro's position. Clancy/Picard and Picard/Ro are essentially the same argument, aren't they?

 

[AlanC9]

Seven was wrong in her actions but in the moment I appreciated her position, and can see how it could be justified.

I'm not sure she was wrong, given the available courses of action

 

[fireproof78]

I'm not sure she was wrong, given the available courses of action

I'm not saying he didn't have much other choice, nor can I not say I wouldn't do the same-in fact I am certain that I would if someone did that to my child. Doesn't make me less wrong.

 

[Makarov]

Something that is kind of missing because it's just a one off episode, is any real cost for her revenge. She blasts her way out dual wielding phaser rifles with no injuries, no other character really cares that she used them to get revenge. Usually revenge stories have a dig-two-graves cautionary side to them. Like Picard coming to his senses in First Contact. That's just my preference though

As far as production quality, I loved it.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Since Picard condemning Starfleet happens later, maybe Picard came around to Ro's position. Clancy/Picard and Picard/Ro are essentially the same argument, aren't they?

Yes, that was the parallel I was pointing too. Picard seems like he's only interesting in duty and following orders, while Ro is witnessing innocent civilians being mowed down by Cardassians. And when she goes back to Picard, he seems to only care about discussing how to lure the Maquis into a trap.

To be fair, it was probably more likely he was disappointed in her as an officer, but from another angle, it looks like he was morally condemning her because she didn't carry out her duty, no matter what she saw.

And then we get Picard visiting Romulan refugees and spending time with them. Starfleet abruptly pulls the plug on the refugee effort, and expect Picard to follow orders and present the appearance that he agrees with it.

Picard thinks it's immoral. So he quits, and publicly condemns Starfleet, and now his former superiors thinks he's a misguided, disloyal, arrogant person. If Picard still thinks Ro was wrong for what she did --- wow.

Both Seven and the crystalline mom had strong reasons for revenge yeah. Riker is interesting in that he has reasons for revenge but sets them aside.

True. Riker thought about revenge too. But the episode itself seemed like it really wanted to say to the fans that Picard was "right" and Dr. Marr was wrong. She has the breakdown at the end and then Data ends up telling her her son would have approved of what she did.

From a certain angle, Picard seems to be a little too wrapped up in his own interpretation of morality to understand why some very upset people want to destroy the C.E.

The Sperm Whale and the cuttlefish example might not have been the best example to give, because now he's suggesting that her son, Riker's dead love interest, and all the millions of other people, where not much different in the grand scheme of things.



I recall on the show that even Riker and Troi took shots at Picard, I think for being arrogant? As a production thing, Stewart said he didnt want to revisit the old Picard and TNG and their way of doing things. I wonder if these were shots at Picard's previous ways of seeing things.

 

[fireproof78]

Something that is kind of missing because it's just a one off episode, is any real cost for her revenge. She blasts her way out dual wielding phaser rifles with no injuries, no other character really cares that she used them to get revenge. Usually revenge stories have a dig-two-graves cautionary side to them. Like Picard coming to his senses in First Contact. That's just my preference though

That's a fair point but, as others have noted, I don't need the show to spell it out for me. It's clear, from Picard's comments to Seven, to Seven's remarks to Jaz, that it is not right and Seven knows it.

 

[TRON JA307020]

So another thing bothering me about Picard is the cheap holographic button effects. This is highly overdone in so many sci fi and superhero movies and shows it’s boring and cheap looking really. Also it’s impractical. Why but just make a holographic control console instead if cheap holographic see through panels. I really hate that cheap effect any amateurs computer and video maker can do in minutes at home.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

More production details - the Borg cube.
https://www.fxguide.com/fxfeatured/picard-a-cube-and-the-tale-of-two-enterprises/

 

[JamesRye]

Better designs? check.

Better framing and camera angles? check.

Nice variety of ships to add interest to the scene? check.

Actually being able to make out any details on the ships? check.

Yeah, it's weird that we live in a time when fan-made renders are better than studio ones. Check out how awesome the Discovery (a design I hated when I first saw it - in that awful clip they played at conventions) looks in this clip:

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There's no excuse for copy and paste fleets - come to the fans and have a design contest! Then don't hide everything in murky, janky sequences. Better still get Adam "Mojo" Lebowitz to come in as lead F/X supervisor, the guys work is amazing.

 

[fireproof78]

There's no excuse for copy and paste fleets

Unless it makes sense in the context of the story. Which it does.