Fair point - could he have aimed for the ceiling and incapacitated Fajo with rubble though?
And each one seemed to slow her down, with increasing effectiveness. Just keep firing!
Or shoot out the floor. Whatever
Production Quality Of Picard
- Thread starter TRON JA307020
- Start date
Or shoot out the floor. Whatever
Days wasn’t human. Yuta was a weapon and was going to kill. If riker would have tried and failed to incapacitate her with one more stun blast she would have killed an innocent.
Same with Seven and Bjayzl. Seven knows exactly what she is capable of and would have keep on killing and maiming xBs.
Also, in all this discussing there appears to be a forgetting of the human reaction. This isn't some problem to be logically pulled apart. Seven saw Icheb horribly mutilated for his parts and then Seven killed him out of mercy when she couldn't save him.
Now, I'm sure all of us would react with little emotion to such an even and would contain our emotions without any sort of thoughts for revenge whatsoever.
Worf did the same thing when he killed Duras for killing his mate K'ehleyr, because he knew nothing would happen to him if he did nothing. And Picard had to reprimand him.
And with the Crystaline Entity, Dr. Marr realized nothing would happen to it after all the killing it did, once she spoke to Picard, who said it had just as much a right to exist as they did, and that he seemed more interested in communicating with it as a scientific issue than with justice.
She took matters into her own hands, and Picard got angry with her.
And then it's interesting that Picard condemned Ro for what she did in Pre Emptive Strike. She went AWOL and left Starfleet to follow her conscience after what she personally witnessed. Picard is very angry with her because she didn't blindly follow her duty as assigned.
And now Picard is in a similar situation because he left Starfleet to follow his conscience, and Starfleet is pretty angry at him. There's some hypocrisy floating around in all this.
For TNG, all of these examples had a neat morality package around it, where the show kind of tells the viewer what's right and who's right, and the good guys always do the right thing in the end.
Whereas the Picard show seems to be saying it's not all that simple anymore. Seven basically dismisses Picard when he tried to tell her the 'revenge is wrong' thing, and went ahead and did it anyway.
But she's not necessarily seen as a bad person, which probably would never happen in TNG.
I fail to see how condemning Bjayzel to most probably die of starvation or exposure is any more moral than quickly vaporizing her.
Who's to say the Fenris Rangers operate prisons? We don't really know anything about how they operate. For all we know, they could be less like the image of Wild West sheriffs and more like the IRA in terms of operational practices.
A brig is already an issue. You need a room on a ship, the room has to have a bed, you need a way to secure the room, you need a way to feed the prisoner, you need a way for the prisoner to meet their hygienic needs, you need to provide the prisoner with dedicated plumbing facilities, you need a way to provide the prisoner with food and water, and you need to have all of these utilities in a single compartment or suite of compartments that can be secured from other ship's compartments. That's the sort of thing that needs to be specially designed. If the Fenris Rangers are, in essence, a private militia that buys civilian ships on the market, it's unlikely they're gonna have access to dedicated brigs.
I think you are severely over-estimating the kinds of social, financial, and infrastructural resources available to Seven.
I don't agree.
With Worf, Picard reprimanded him because he followed his desire for vengeance while still a commissioned Starfleet officer; killing Duras was both a violation of Starfleet military law and represented a Federation officer interfering with internal Klingon politics at a time when the Federation was trying to maintain its neutrality. Had Worf resigned his commission before killing Duras, I don't think Picard would have reprimanded him.
Similarly, with Ro, Picard didn't necessarily have personal animus towards Maquis members; he was sympathetic to their desire to protect their homes from Cardassian militias. Picard's issue with Ro was that he and Ro had taken an oath as Starfleet officers to obey and carry out lawful orders. Picard viewed Ro's decision as an act of betrayal because she did it while under oath as an officer. Had she resigned her oath, then joined the Maquis, I doubt he would have felt as betrayed.
Say what you will about Jean-Luc Picard -- his own actions were entirely consistent with that value system. He resigned from Starfleet before he ever spoke publicly against it.
He got angry at her because she killed a lifeform unlike any other known to exist, and did so when it seemed as though establishing communication with that lifeform was a possibility. They did not know with any certainty that the Crystalline Entity understood that it was murdering sentient beings; the possibility existed that the Entity did not realize and did not intend to kill sentient beings, and until such possibility is ruled out, murdering the Entity for something she did not know with certainty that it knew to be immoral, was itself immoral.
I agree with this. PIC is not interested in babying its audience the way TNG did.
It's not the same thing because Yuta posed immediate danger. Essentially she was armed and had her weapon trained on them and was in the process of deploying it.
Maxwell and O'Brien had emotional reasons to get some revenge as well.
TNG is more complex on this issue than ST:Picard where Seven's revenge is treated no differently than any action movie, the old setup a tragedy and then glorify the revenge killing. It's not really tackled with more depth here.
The alternative is Seven killing an unarmed person for revenge. How long until the Fenris Rangers become corrupt with that kind of power?
Why didn't Kirk just vaporize Khan? He would certainly kill if he escaped but Kirk didnt just put him out of his misery.
A room with a force field or a locked door doesn't seem that hard to come by to be honest. The La Sirena has the ability. Even without any tech at all Seven would be able to figure something out
I must have watched a different episode where Seven wasn't also in danger. Again, just because Jaz was unarmed doesn't make her less dangerous.
Oh, it was so glorified...
Agree to disagree at this point.
not the same thing. She wasn’t at that moment threatening anyone. 7 had a choice to take her in to authorities but she didn’t. She decided to just kill her while she was standing pleading for her not to shoot.
What authorities?
Seven knew the pleading was a stall tactic and not actual contrition.
And this is still ignoring the human emotions that apparently the expectation in the future is that humans have evolved past. Which is why TNG characters sometimes struck me as not real people.
How were they not real people? Because they didn’t swear or have emotional
Issues and drank like fish? The point of Star Trek was that mankind is starting to evolve into something better. Roddenberry was specific on this. Yes there are still bad oriole in the 23rd and 24th centuries but they are outliers. For the must part humanity has and is continuing to become something better. I got the feeling in tos, tng, voy and even ds9. I did not get that feeling from Picard. I felt like I was watching lackluster sci go with people from the early 21st century stuck in the 24th century.
Not real people in that they appeared to not experience emotions.
You must not have watched tng then.
I watched enough. Picard's characters reminded me of TOS.
Yeah I didn’t think you followed tng closely. Also STPs characters are nothing like TOS.
No, I didn't because they didn't feel human. I said reminded me of TOS no identical.
The reactions in this thread remind me of Riker getting an attaboy for not saving a little girl.
exactly you like your trek to have people act just like 20th and 21st century people. That’s not what Star Trek was about.
Riker was given the power of the Q. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. That’s what Picard knew could happen. It was explained clearly in the episode. Remember what happened to Gary Mitchell.
While I think early TNG's characters were - in general - too austere and inhuman, Picard was in some ways an exception. In early TNG Picard comes across a priggish, uptight, and straight-up dick. He makes it very clear he doesn't like children. He has a hard time relating to anyone on his crew (other than Beverly) as human beings. It's only later on that we actually start to see more genuine warmth to his character, with the rougher edges worn down.
I want them to act like humans, to have emotions and to occasionally mess up. Not saints in a play where they get everything right.
And TNG showed us the mess ups but never the consequences. The only difference in Picard is we actually have to live with those consequences rather than warping away.
The emotional disconnect from Picard is troublesome. At this point I don't believe that they are real humans because they treat death with all the emotional investment of a block of wood. If being angry, and emotional, and reactive makes me a 21st century human then fine. Nevermind that that is how humans have been for a while and no evolution is going to drum that out of them in a healthy way.
So, perhaps you are right-Star Trek is dystopian-they are all emotionless humans who have evolved to simply allowing this to happen and that's just fine. That is quite frightening to me.
Nothing gives me a heartier chuckle than when a True Believer starts telling everyone that evolved humanity is "What Star Trek was all about!" (extra points awarded if they say something condescending like "you must not have watched the same franchise as me" when you attempt to explain that is horseshit)
It's basically the new version of the Gene's Vision Argument for people who are savvy enough to know that one generally gets laughed off the board quicker than a sneeze through a wormhole for typing those words.
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