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Spoilers The Flash - Season 6

Actually, there is--it's the same principle. And it arguably violates your civil rights--to an extent. Do you think actors should be blackballed if they vote for a conservative?



Civil rights laws tend to disagree.



Well, I think we aren't too far off then. They show may have had the right to do so, but that doesn't make it right, and the logic behind it is very dangerous and will lead to stifling of free speech.



The religion or race of the maker is not relevant. Try showing Blazing Saddles in a college, and they will try to ban it. Mel Brooks also made a LOT of racial jokes as well. Watch the first few minutes of Blazing Saddles. Actually, don't--I can tell you have seen it and know exactly why it's funny. Hollywood is using presentism to change history and it's not good.



From a football player in the middle of a game, yes. Sawyer didn't do anything like that.



In your job where it isn't appropriate? Yes. Sawyer didn't do anything like that.



No--what I see is the difference. HERE is where your argument makes more sense. I see a distinction between what the appropriate action is. If Kaepernick held a rally on his own time, that's one thing. But when you're on the clock, you need to do your job, not make a statement. That's why it is appropriate for an employer to discipline him. He embarrassed the league and angered millions of fans. His gesture overwhelmed his statement.

The only thing Sawyer and Kaepernick have in common is that they embarrassed their employers. The level of discipline is different because Kaepernick did it while employed.



You're completely misreading everything, and making it about race when it isn't. And get real. Kaepernick was a failed QB trying to use race to stay in a league that he simply isn't good enough to play in. That's why he publicly announced he would end his protest when his contract was up. I'm not saying he didn't have a right to express himself--but do it on your own time, not your employer's.

You're right that some forms of speech have consequences. I think no NFL team wanting such a toxic element on their roster is a reasonable consequence to what Kaepernick does. He's not Tom Brady. If Tom Brady kneeled, he'd still have a job because he's talented. But Kaepernick is toxic and not serious about playing football. If he was, he would have shown up when he was offered a workout in front of a bunch of NFL teams.

Sawyer did not act while employed. That's not racial. That's fact. If Candace Patton made similar jokes years ago, she shouldn't be fired either. Completely different examples.



The NFL is bowing to pressure. They were not wrong at all. It's football, not a political rally. And again, the man is not good enough to play in the NFL.



It's a little different. She did what she did off the clock, but it was current and made national news. It's not like she did it 8 years ago. Plus, honestly, I think it was a lot worse than what Sawyer did.



There are right to privacy laws.



I'm glad Cooper was filmed. It would have been terrible if the man faced charges for things he didn't do. But that goes in the other direction too. It would be naive to think that there aren't false claims of racism too. See Jussie Smollett or Tawana Brawley.

Privacy laws are very important, but so is justice. I don't think Amy Cooper's right to privacy was violated though. She was in a public place and recorded in a confrontation outside and in public. That's different than say, cheating on your spouse, in a hotel, where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy.

There are already laws dealing with that. I don't believe Amy Cooper was wronged in her case.

The National Anthem happens BEFORE the game, so kneeling during the "middle of the game" not so much. So...

As for the rest? Go back and reread my posts, skimming through here, there's nothing new, and so, nothing to add or rebut. He's fired. He was fired for the posts he made. It was legal. There's no slippery slope, blah blah blah.

But, more precisely: I don't really care about your opinion.
 
The National Anthem happens BEFORE the game, so kneeling during the "middle of the game" not so much. So...

The athletes are on the clock from the moment they arrive at work to warm up, so yes, it counts.

As for the rest? Go back and reread my posts, skimming through here, there's nothing new, and so, nothing to add or rebut. He's fired. He was fired for the posts he made. It was legal. There's no slippery slope, blah blah blah.

You're entitled to your opinion, but this is still a form of McCarthyism, and it could happen to anyone for any reason. That's not a good thing.

But, more precisely: I don't really care about your opinion.

You're entitled to that. Of course that isn't true because you engaged in a conversation for days. The good news about that is that it provides a forum to have these discussions, and that is an exercise of free speech -- something Sawyer didn't get.

This "cancel culture" fad is very dangerous. It's just as bad as McCarthyism and it sets a dangerous precedent.
 
The athletes are on the clock from the moment they arrive at work to warm up, so yes, it counts.



You're entitled to your opinion, but this is still a form of McCarthyism, and it could happen to anyone for any reason. That's not a good thing.



You're entitled to that. Of course that isn't true because you engaged in a conversation for days. The good news about that is that it provides a forum to have these discussions, and that is an exercise of free speech -- something Sawyer didn't get.

This "cancel culture" fad is very dangerous. It's just as bad as McCarthyism and it sets a dangerous precedent.

Sigh. Not McCarthyism. And as far as cancel culture it seems the only ones caught up in it are those making racist and sexist jokes or getting caught being sexual harassers. People like Louis CK are still making a living. Sawyer maybe hired again. That’s a far cry from the writers and actors who were literally jailed during McCarthy, or driven to suicide. Your hyperbole is patently ridiculous and sad.

And again: nice hand waving away Colin’s Civil Rights, as you’ve argued. They aren’t very much rights if they only count some of the time.
 
Sigh. Not McCarthyism. And as far as cancel culture it seems the only ones caught up in it are those making racist and sexist jokes or getting caught being sexual harassers. People like Louis CK are still making a living. Sawyer maybe hired again. That’s a far cry from the writers and actors who were literally jailed during McCarthy, or driven to suicide. Your hyperbole is patently ridiculous and sad.

You can sigh all you want, but it's the same principle. It's the same witch hunt. It's the same discrimination.

And you really think cancel culture only goes after racist and sex offenders? Then explain how Joe Biden is still a candidate. Cancel culture is like book burning as well. See what these morons are doing with Gone With The Wind.

That's what's ridiculous and sad--that, and condoning the wrong thing just because it's trendy.

And again: nice hand waving away Colin’s Civil Rights, as you’ve argued. They aren’t very much rights if they only count some of the time.

Didn't wave away anything. He is free to protest on his own time. But when you are on the job, on the clock, you are not free to make a protest.
 
:rolleyes: Adding a brief message about changing cultural and social mores from a respected scholar is hardly "moronic".

It sort of is, though. Every single movie is a product of the time it was made. It literally can't be any other way. And every movie can only be judged from that perspective, otherwise, we'll have to disclaim almost every movie made. Breakfast at Tiffany's, My Fair Lady, Holiday Inn, Annie... that's just off the top of my head.

People SHOULD go into any older movie knowing it's a product of its time and having to spell it out for someone isn't exactly for the thinking person.

And older movies are also sexist, homophobic, and many other "ists" that should be disclaimed as well.
 
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You can sigh all you want, but it's the same principle. It's the same witch hunt. It's the same discrimination.

It's not the same principle. They are similar in appearance, but one is an institution that is strictly forbidden to be involved in speech, has been created to protect our right and also carries the power of the state (through law and military) versus a private enterprise parting ways with an individual. One is the state saying "you cannot work" the other is "you cannot work for me."

So, no.

And you really think cancel culture only goes after racist and sex offenders? Then explain how Joe Biden is still a candidate.

Besides the fact people did try and have Biden "cancelled," I guess cancel culture isn't so powerful as you think it is.

Cancel culture is like book burning as well. See what these morons are doing with Gone With The Wind.

Book burning isn't what it once was if it's still commercially available... like here's the blu-ray. I can even rent it.

So... What on Earth are you talking about?

That's what's ridiculous and sad--that, and condoning the wrong thing just because it's trendy.

Or... because it's actually always been wrong to have racist stereo types? But, again, it's not book burning if it's still commercially available.

Didn't wave away anything. He is free to protest on his own time. But when you are on the job, on the clock, you are not free to make a protest.

*whispers* they're not rights if they can be taken away when you're on the job
Either they are rights or they aren't. Either Sawyer was wrongly fired because of his civil rights as was Kaepernick or neither. You don't get to have it both ways. Rights don't work like that.

It sort of is, though. Every single movie is a product of the time it was made. It literally can't be any other way. And every movie can only be judged from that perspective, otherwise, we'll have to disclaim almost every movie made. Breakfast at Tiffany's, My Fair Lady, Holiday Inn, Annie... that's just off the top of my head.

You're also choosing pretty racist things off the top of your head too. Breakfast at Tiffany's, holy shit, Mickey Rooney as the Asian landlord, holy FUCCCCCK. But, I can also think of a bunch of movies that don't need that sort contextualization. I brought up the Looney Tunes cartoons and most of them didn't have racist depictions. Those that did, they were put onto one DVD that had Whoopi had context.

People SHOULD go into any older movie knowing it's a product of its time and having to spell it out for someone isn't exactly for the thinking person.

Welcome to American, is it your first time?

And older movies are also sexist, homophobic, and many other "ists" that should be disclaimed as well.

Disclaim means to refuse to acknowledge or deny. That's not what's happening. No one is refusing to acknowledge Gone with the Wind exists... One could argue that putting a disclaimer in front of the movie is deny responsibility, but then who thinks the current people at Warner Brothers are responsible for making Gone With The Wind. It's a clip adding context.
 
It sort of is, though. Every single movie is a product of the time it was made. It literally can't be any other way. And every movie can only be judged from that perspective, otherwise, we'll have to disclaim almost every movie made. Breakfast at Tiffany's, My Fair Lady, Holiday Inn, Annie... that's just off the top of my head.

People SHOULD go into any older movie knowing it's a product of its time and having to spell it out for someone isn't exactly for the thinking person.

And older movies are also sexist, homophobic, and many other "ists" that should be disclaimed as well.
I’m not going to get into it in detail from my phone, but I’ve spent a good chunk of my professional career (since the late 90s) providing this kind of context to my students, so no, it’s not self evident. I’ll return to the subject when I’m at my computer for more details but in the meantime, context is king. And often, this idea must be made explicit.
 
It sort of is, though. Every single movie is a product of the time it was made. It literally can't be any other way. And every movie can only be judged from that perspective, otherwise, we'll have to disclaim almost every movie made. Breakfast at Tiffany's, My Fair Lady, Holiday Inn, Annie... that's just off the top of my head.

People SHOULD go into any older movie knowing it's a product of its time and having to spell it out for someone isn't exactly for the thinking person.

And older movies are also sexist, homophobic, and many other "ists" that should be disclaimed as well.

Yes, you are correct of course. I am sure when POTUS calls out those other movies as classics when criticizing the Oscars then they will need disclaimers as well--just as toxic cleaning products require disclaimers and special ad campaigns when POTUS encourages people to ingest them.
 
:rolleyes: Adding a brief message about changing cultural and social mores from a respected scholar is hardly "moronic".

It's absurd. How about, watch the movie, or don't? Anyone who gets triggered by an 81 year old classic movie is an idiot that doesn't need to be catered to.

It's not the same principle. They are similar in appearance, but one is an institution that is strictly forbidden to be involved in speech, has been created to protect our right and also carries the power of the state (through law and military) versus a private enterprise parting ways with an individual. One is the state saying "you cannot work" the other is "you cannot work for me."

So, no.

It's exactly the same principle. If you've followed the news lately, you may have noticed that people are clamoring for equality, which is great, as it should exist. Yet you get more persecuted being a conservative than you can for any protected class. You get labeled, discriminated against, fired, etc., all for liking the president. That's absolute McCarthyism. Again, civil rights exist to protect all rights in all situations, even against private actors. And as for "you cannot work" v. "you cannot work for me," try getting work as a conservative actor in Hollywood. It's extremely rare.

Besides the fact people did try and have Biden "cancelled," I guess cancel culture isn't so powerful as you think it is.

Well, nothing is more powerful than liberal privilege. It's called hypocrisy. You can get away with just about anything if you're a liberal. Just ask Governor Blackface of Virginia.

They want Biden to win, so he can get away with anything. Biden shows that to the media, blatant, open racism is fine if a democrat does it. Just hypocrisy.

Book burning isn't what it once was if it's still commercially available... like here's the blu-ray. I can even rent it.

So... What on Earth are you talking about?

Have you not seen the public stupidity regarding Gone With The Wind and Dukes of Hazzard? Waging a campaign against things like this, taking away options to watch without costing people money, that's the same idea as book burning.

*whispers* they're not rights if they can be taken away when you're on the job
Either they are rights or they aren't. Either Sawyer was wrongly fired because of his civil rights as was Kaepernick or neither. You don't get to have it both ways. Rights don't work like that.

Actually, they are. You want to protest on the job? You're fired. People are paid to do a job. If they don't do the job, they lose the job.

It's amazing how you can't understand the distinction. Sawyer not only wasn't on the clock, he wasn't even hired at the time. You want an equivalent, it would be Sawyer making these jokes during filming, or while promoting the show. On set. If Kaepernick was filmed protesting on his own time, that's a different issue.
 
It's absurd. How about, watch the movie, or don't? Anyone who gets triggered by an 81 year old classic movie is an idiot that doesn't need to be catered to.

You could just skip the context if it makes you uncomfortable.
It's exactly the same principle.

Nope.

If you've followed the news lately, you may have noticed that people are clamoring for equality, which is great, as it should exist. Yet you get more persecuted being a conservative than you can for any protected class.

AHH. Now we come to the real problem.
Edited: deleted something that would take us down a road we shouldn't go here.

You get labeled, discriminated against, fired, etc., all for liking the president. That's absolute McCarthyism.

Seriously? I'm only gonna dip a wee bit off topic... But, when people are fired by the government for speaking out against the President, THAT'S McCarthyism. You don't get to have it both ways.

Again, civil rights exist to protect all rights in all situations, even against private actors. And as for "you cannot work" v. "you cannot work for me," try getting work as a conservative actor in Hollywood. It's extremely rare.

YEAH, Bruce Willis! Yeah, Bruce Boxleitner and Tom Selleck! Guys we've never heard of! And that's just the guys who are actors, there's a WHOLE bunch of people below the line with all sorts of leanings. As much as conservative media likes to tell you otherwise, Hollywood is actually pretty diverse in political leanings. The only north star is money.

Anyway...

Have you not seen the public stupidity regarding Gone With The Wind and Dukes of Hazzard? Waging a campaign against things like this, taking away options to watch without costing people money, that's the same idea as book burning.

[Heston] THEY WILL PULL MY BLU RAYS OF AMOS N ANDY FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS. [/Heston]

It's a funny sort of book burning when it's commercially available. AD FREE even!

And, let's be real. We wouldn't be having the conversation if it was the General Rommel and there was a swastika on the roof of the car. The Confederate flag has ALWAYS been a racist symbol--that country was founded on the idea of OWNING HUMAN BEINGS. Displaying it in the past few decades as been tolerated, and for some celebrated. But culture is changing. I know, it's sad to find out something you liked as a kid was actually racist. But there you go.

AND, a company is under no obligation to sell you something. But, again, both Gone with the Wind and Dukes of Hazzard--AD. FREE--are available.

Actually, they are. You want to protest on the job? You're fired. People are paid to do a job. If they don't do the job, they lose the job.

Go back and look at my posts. I never said the NFL couldn't legally push Kaepernick out. I think it was morally and ethically wrong. But not illegal. Just like I don't think it was illegal to fire Sawyer. You've been arguing Civil rights for Sawyer, but not for Kaepernick. That's why I think you're hypocritical.

It's amazing how you can't understand the distinction. Sawyer not only wasn't on the clock,

He's the public face of a TV show. He's ALWAYS on the clock. That's the price ya pay for fame.

he wasn't even hired at the time. You want an equivalent, it would be Sawyer making these jokes during filming, or while promoting the show. On set. If Kaepernick was filmed protesting on his own time, that's a different issue.

Gosh, if ONLY he had found a more convenient time for white people to quietly protest the abuse of black people by police. lol.
 
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AHH. Now we come to the real problem.
Maybe conservatives shouldn't have shit opinions about race and gender?

Of course, that's completely inaccurate, and that's part of the problem.

You could just skip the context if it makes you uncomfortable.

And likewise, you can not watch the movie rather than burden others with some idiotic disclaimer.

Seriously? I'm only gonna dip a wee bit off topic... But, when people are fired by the government for speaking out against the President, THAT'S McCarthyism. You don't get to have it both ways.

Depends on if he's your boss or not. Insubordination is grounds for dismissal. What is also McCarthyism is the attacking of conservatives at colleges and universities-most of which take state funds and still suppress conservatives. It's not a good thing.

YEAH, Bruce Willis! Yeah, Bruce Boxleitner and Tom Selleck! Guys we've never heard of!

Anyway...

Wow! Three whole examples! And how political are they?

And, let's be real. We wouldn't be having the conversation if it was the General Rommel and there was a swastika on the roof of the car. The Confederate flag has ALWAYS been a racist symbol--that country was founded on the idea of OWNING HUMAN BEINGS. Displaying it in the past few decades as been tolerated, and for some celebrated. But culture is changing. I know, it's sad to find out something you liked as a kid was actually racist. But there you go.

AND, a company is under no obligation to sell you something. But, again, both Gone with the Wind and Dukes of Hazzard--AD. FREE--are available.

Both are the targets of the crazed cancel culture. When you see these animals ripping down statues and trying to white wash history, that's a problem. That's a lot closer to the brown shirts than anything else.

There are other issues involving the Confederate States that have nothing to do with slavery. On the Dukes, there was NEVER an issue with race. There was NEVER anything other than good values. If anything, it's discriminatory to imply that is the prevalent view in the South. If you think the Dukes has anything racist about it, you didn't watch the show.

Go back and look at my posts. I never said the NFL couldn't legally push Kaepernick out. I think it was morally and ethically wrong. But not illegal. Just like I don't think it was illegal to fire Sawyer. You've been arguing Civil rights for Sawyer, but not for Kaepernick. That's why I think you're hypocritical.

Because Sawyer and Kaepernick are completely different scenarios which, if you look at my posts, you can see.

He's the public face of a TV show. He's ALWAYS on the clock. That's the price ya pay for fame.

You're not on the clock before you're hired. If Sawyer made these tweets today, I wouldn't have the same issue with his punishment, though I would point out the hypocrisy with other actors who have done worse.

Gosh, if ONLY he had found a more convenient time for white people to quietly protest the abuse of black people by police. lol.

You don't get to do it during your job. It's amazing how many protests can happen in your off hours.
 
To me it still comes down to boundaries. People shouldn't feel comfortable with their job basically telling you what you can say or not say or think when your not at work . Especially since the things called unacceptable is always changing and some of the things called unacceptable are even dubious. Racism and sexism is about how you treat your fellow being. It's not about how edgy your jokes are that aren't intended to be offensive because if something is intended to be offensive that is called insults.

To be honest I would rather live in a world were offensive stuff is sometimes said in order to encourage all people's freedom or expression so the truth can never be buried by people in power in order to maintain their power as opposed to a world were everything is about trying to bully or manipulate people into conformity making people hesitant to say anything not knowing what will be the next thing that is called offensive and the people in power will try to cancel you or make you go away because of it.

It really comes down to whether or not you want freedom or a every growing big brother state with purity tests. You would think people would have learned this over the years from how everything from organized religions to cults to oppressive governments using Communism has tried to control people this way, starting off this way as well working their way up to more and more restrictions on people, but instead it seems the answer is no people didn't learn that. People always think that as long as the people with power are on my side then what could possible go wrong by forcing others to think like me. They will never come for me and they won't abuse their power but it never works out that way.

Jason
 
To be honest I would rather live in a world were offensive stuff is sometimes said in order to encourage all people's freedom or expression.

We do live in that world. But generally those who say the offensive stuff KNOW they are saying offensive stuff and are willing to face the consequences, ie, a public that is outraged. And this is nothing new. The religious right freaked out when Ellen dared come out as gay on her TV show.

It really comes down to whether or not you want freedom or a every growing big brother state with purity tests.
Jason

And when Big Brother--which is the STATE--has purity tests--which Trump kinda does now for his appointees--I'll march along side with ya.
 
Just because one side doesn't care mean your suppose to just do it as well. Otherwise what will the difference be? People need leaders with some principles who won't go down into the mud because their other side will. People got to stand for things because it's right even if it might not be politically convenient. I also know people say stuff that is racist because they are simply racist but that doesn't matter. What matters is people's freedom of speech and the line is usually drawn at this level because this is where the fight is. Nobody will ever try and remove free speech by going after things people like. They go after the worst speech and then move up lowering the bar as they go and that is because it's easy to go after terrible people.

When it comes to this Sawyer guy for example what possibly could be harmed with him having his job. Maybe some discomfort around the work place. Maybe hurt feelings but in reality people understand moral complexity in real life better than they do on Twitter so most people would understand why he made the jokes and most of the people no doubt made those exact same type of jokes because this wasn't so far in the past that people don't remember living in that time.

Jason
 
That's a hot take from a white straight guy, telling others they should just suck it up. Why should they have to?

See? Why is that acceptable? That's a racist comment, and I don't think you meant it that way, but the current culture seems to make racism acceptable as long as it's against straight white males. You're dismissing his opinion based on his race and gender. Change the word "white" to "black" and maybe you can see it. There are things in this world that people SHOULD just have to suck up, and that's true whether the opinion comes from a straight white male, a gay Asian female, or any combination of any race and gender. Sawyer's comments were 8 years ago.

And while we are on the subject of different standards, I wonder if Sawyer would have been fired had he NOT been white.
 
See? Why is that acceptable? That's a racist comment, and I don't think you meant it that way, but the current culture seems to make racism acceptable as long as it's against straight white males.

*sigh*

You're dismissing his opinion based on his race and gender.

I'm dismissing his opinion based on his experience. As in, he has never experienced being the butt of a joke because of his race and gender. As in, he has never experienced "driving while black" or "Maybe you should wear something shorter so men don't rape you."

Change the word "white" to "black" and maybe you can see it.

If all things were equal, maybe you'd have a point. Until then...

There are things in this world that people SHOULD just have to suck up,

Like being fired because you told shitty jokes on the internet. Sawyer has sucked it up and moved on.
And you know what, there are things you SHOULDN'T have to suck up. Arguably, you aren't "sucking up" this cancel culture. You decide for yourself where to draw the line and at the same time, you don't get to tell someone else where THEY have to draw it. Freedom sucks, don't it?

And while we are on the subject of different standards, I wonder if Sawyer would have been fired had he NOT been white.

Since he was fired for making racist and sexists jokes... well, I doubt he would've made the racist jokes, so...
Kevin Hart was pushed out of hosting the Oscars because of some of his homophobic jokes... and look at that, he's black AND he's working. So much for the power of cancel culture. Or are we back to "it's a double standard"

This is all hissy fit by white people who no longer get to make racist and sexists jokes without consequences.

And likewise, you can not watch the movie rather than burden others with some idiotic disclaimer.

Oh, noes, it's a burden to fast forward.... AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Wow! Three whole examples! And how political are they?

I don't know, why don't you ask them? What's next, purity tests to see if they are "actually" conservative?

Both are the targets of the crazed cancel culture. When you see these animals ---

Nope. We're almost done here...

There are other issues involving the Confederate States that have nothing to do with slavery.

lol. Was it their tax policy?

And NOW, we're done.
 
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