When SHOULD Riker have left?

[Makarov]

In an alternate timeline, Riker accepts the position on the Melbourne and the ship is destroyed. Picard is never rescued and remains Locutus. As Locutus he becomes the Federation's greatest enemy and assimilates the earth.

In Humanity's last hour Geordi and Data with the help of Shelby invent a negative-anti-time phase inducement beam that travels to the past and plants the idea in Riker's mind that he must remain with Picard on the Enterprise.

Witness the epic conclusion this arc in Picard season 2 when Locutus travels from that timeline in order to face off against Jean Luc Picard (I wish)

 

[Nerys Myk]

He should have left the second Lwaxana Troi beamed aboard. I know I would.

 

[shivkala]

Meaning, if he were to have waited for Picard to vacate, he wouldn't have become a captain until he was 50 years old, foregoing the fact that maybe they don't want a 1st time captain for that ship anyhow. Picard wasn't one. If it was his plan, it's a really dumb & frankly arrogant gamble.

According to the script for Generations, the Enterprise-B was Harriman's first command. Granted Riker would be older at 50 than Harriman was, but it's quite possible Starfleet would not have wanted a first time commander of their flagship after the incident with the Nexus.

 

[Mojochi]

According to the script for Generations, the Enterprise-B was Harriman's first command. Granted Riker would be older at 50 than Harriman was, but it's quite possible Starfleet would not have wanted a first time commander of their flagship after the incident with the Nexus.

Enterprise was Kirk's 1st command too, right? I think by the time of the D, the ship is heralded as the jewel of the fleet, which probably wasn't the case in earlier times. Picard was captain 31 years already when he got it. The only chosen replacement we see is Jellico, who is roughly just as seasoned

 

[Paul755]

Riker should have left after BOBW. It was the logical move in-universe.

You could have even written it so that it’s him that takes temporary command of the Enterprise in Chain of Command instead of Jellico. Maybe make Riker a different type of guy when he comes back, one that’s a little tougher and more ridged, one that’s not as liked by his crew and he has to learn how to get back to being “himself” while he’s back on the Enterprise.

 

[Tenacity]

their flagship

Without Picard as the captain of the Enterprise-D, would the ship still have been designated as the "flagship of the Federation?"

Specifically referring to Picard's diplomatic skills.

Might the status of flagship be transferred to another starship, with a appropreately senior captain?

 

[Angry Fanboy]

Which is just silly. Even by GEN, Picard had only commanded the D a 3rd as long as the Stargazer, & would command the E for an additional 13 years, in total, equaling that amount of time.

There's a bit of a false equivalence going on here - Picard was a much younger, much less experienced person when he took over the Stargazer. By 2371 Picard would have been a good bet for promotion to the admiralty given his superlative record.

Also I'm not sure why the length of time he commanded the Stargazer is such an overriding factor here - as if because he captained that ship for twenty years Picard should captain his next ship for the same length of time and anything less isn't acceptable?

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

negative-anti-time phase inducement beam

I assume this is done by realigning the main deflector

 

[Mojochi]

There's a bit of a false equivalence going on here - Picard was a much younger, much less experienced person when he took over the Stargazer. By 2371 Picard would have been a good bet for promotion to the admiralty given his superlative record.

Also I'm not sure why the length of time he commanded the Stargazer is such an overriding factor here - as if because he captained that ship for twenty years Picard should captain his next ship for the same length of time and anything less isn't acceptable?

That wasn't the overlying point of my post. I was pointing out the length of time because we were discussing Riker's apparent plan to wait out Picard to vacate the Enterprise command, which wasn't going to happen for the same amount of time as he'd commanded the Stargazer. On average, Picard seems to find a place & stay there, was what I was getting at. They might offer Picard admiralty, but in their era, his age meant he could easily command for that length of time 1st. Hell, Kirk recommended he do that very thing, & Picard had already been offered admiralty prior to 2371, either once or twice. I can't recall

 

[Angry Fanboy]

... Riker's apparent plan to wait out Picard to vacate the Enterprise command, which wasn't going to happen for the same amount of time as he'd commanded the Stargazer.

Yes I understood what you meant - this is exactly the false equivalence that I was addressing.

Asserting that because Picard commanded the Stargazer for twenty years then it must also be true that he will command the Enterprise for twenty years is a logical fallacy - the two things aren't linked in the way you're stating they are.

In the same way that because I owned my first car for ten years, it doesn't follow that I'll own my second car for ten years as well (I owned it for three years).

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Picard would never have had the required traits of demented traitor to make it as a Starfleet Admiral

 

[shivkala]

Enterprise was Kirk's 1st command too, right? I think by the time of the D, the ship is heralded as the jewel of the fleet, which probably wasn't the case in earlier times. Picard was captain 31 years already when he got it. The only chosen replacement we see is Jellico, who is roughly just as seasoned

Good points. I mentioned the script, since I don't know if Enterprise as Kirk's first command is technically canon. However, aside from it being (retroactively) a ship with the same name as Starfleet's first Warp-5 ship, the Enterprise was just another ship. It would be Kirk's tenure that would (presumably) cement its status in the fleet.

Though, as far as Enterprises go, it seems more captains have been assigned to it as their first command than not. Kirk (most likely), Harriman (according to the script), and Garrett (according to the non-canon Lost Era novels) were all first time captains, making Picard the outlier.

HOWEVER, one could argue that not only due to its legendary status, but the fact that the captain of a Galaxy-class ship had to make decisions that would not only affect the crew, but also the families onboard (including young children). So, you could say that they wanted a captain with experience for the Enterprise-D. Of course, this puts us down another rabbit hole of the logic of Starfleet deciding they wanted a seasoned vet as Captain of the Galaxy class Enterprise, but then choosing one who lost his last ship (not a knock against Picard, but it had to have come up in their decision making process).

Without Picard as the captain of the Enterprise-D, would the ship still have been designated as the "flagship of the Federation?"

Specifically referring to Picard's diplomatic skills.

Might the status of flagship be transferred to another starship, with a appropreately senior captain?

I guess it depends on whether we're deciding Picard would become an admiral and would claim the Enterprise as his ship. But, yes, you raise a very good point.

Which leads me to another consideration, should we have seen Picard grooming Riker more? It's clear he saw potential in Will, could he have done more to have fostered that? Maybe aided him in figuring out why he was reluctant to take command himself and helped him work on those areas?

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Though, as far as Enterprises go, it seems more captains have been assigned to it as their first command than not. Kirk (most likely), Harriman (according to the script), and Garrett (according to the non-canon Lost Era novels) were all first time captains, making Picard the outlier.

There's an awful lot of questionable canon there. Personally novels and scripts don't cut it for me

should we have seen Picard grooming Riker more?

No cause it would have been a bit of a strange scene and plus Riker looked better with a beard

 

[Paul Weaver]

I saw it as a result of the physics of the whole scenario.

*Twitching over orbital mechanics*


I love the idea of Thomas Riker coming in in mid season 4, leading Will Riker to leave to captain a brand new ship at the end (and included in Redemption), Data gets some long term growth, maybe move Worf to Ops and put Tom on Tactical post end-season-4.

It fits with the constraints of the show, mixes up some of the characters, and fits in fairly well with the possibilities of syndicative TV at the time (modern TV is happy to kill off/retire whoever is needed for the plot, but this could have worked in the 90s)

 

[shivkala]

There's an awful lot of questionable canon there. Personally novels and scripts don't cut it for me

Fair enough, though that does essentially leave us with Picard as being the only captain whose captaincy prior to assuming command of the Enterprise is known.

No cause it would have been a bit of a strange scene and plus Riker looked better with a beard

Now all I can picture is Picard replacing Troi in the tub for that scene in Insurrection. Though, to be fair, perhaps he didn't shave Riker, but simply trimmed his beard. Perhaps even applying beard oil.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Fair enough, though that does essentially leave us with Picard as being the only captain whose captaincy prior to assuming command of the Enterprise is known.



Now all I can picture is Picard replacing Troi in the tub for that scene in Insurrection. Though, to be fair, perhaps he didn't shave Riker, but simply trimmed his beard. Perhaps even applying beard oil.

Riker: "why are you wearing a phaser in the bathtub captain?"

 

[shivkala]

Riker: "why are you wearing a phaser in the bathtub captain?"

And that's the exact moment Riker decided he was going to accept command of the Titan.

 

[Vger23]

I like the idea that, as a character, Riker went against the cliché of the young, ambitious hot shot who wanted to rise in rank and conquer the galaxy with his awesomeness. Yes, he sort of stated that on his Starfleet Talent Profile for HR, but he definitely deep-down didn't want much more than to learn and do his job on the Enterprise.

I think it's a cool character trait, and one that makes Riker one of the more nuanced and interesting characters of the TNG-era.

 

[Discofan]

Riker: "why are you wearing a phaser in the bathtub captain?"

Are you wearing a phaser or just happy to see me.

 

[STEPhon IT]

By my count Riker was offered his own ship four times that we know of:

He was offered the Drake at the age of 29, but turned it down in favour of the first officer position on the Enterprise. He was offered the Aries a year later and turned down that ship too. Next was the Melbourne just before the Borg attack of 2366. Then the offer of the Titan rolled round fourteen years later in 2379.

Starfleet may well have offered him his own ship between 2366 and 2379 - maybe they were offering him ships regularly from the age of 29 with the Drake to 44 when he finally accepted the Titan. Or Starfleet may have taken the view 'we''ve offered him three ships and had three refusals, he can stay on the Enterprise for all we care...'

He was clearly a rising star within Starfleet, Picard described him as 'quite simply the finest officer he'd ever served with'. But his career stalled after a year or two on the Enterprise, he and everyone else around him knew that.

To my mind he was essentially a captain serving as a first officer from about 2366 onwards after the Borg attack, after which his stock was probably as high as it had ever been after his field promotion and the part he played in stopping the Borg.

Was he right to stay as long as he did? Curious to know what others think?

Hard to imagine any senior officer would leave the elegance and pure presence of the Enterprise to be Captain of an Excelsior class vessel or those other minor things. I thought Riker was gearing his commission for a Galaxy Class construction and Starfleet was making them during his tour of duty. I would've liked to see Riker leave 1701-E after the movie FC, promoted to Captain of a Galaxy Class and join Captain Picard on other adventures for the rest of their TNG movie run. Outside of movie/TV world Jonathan Frakes was a hot commodity in Hollywood as a director and it may have made his acting role smaller but if he's helming the movies it would be convenient for him in the transition.

There were ways for Riker as Captain of a Galaxy Class ship could work I thought for the movies; for example: in INS Data could've been assigned to Riker's ship during that conflict and Picard comes in to help join and investigate.

There's no doubt in my mind, when watching the TV series, Riker wanted a Galaxy Class vessel and it would've been a nice send off he gotten his wish.