This persons analysis is based on real world physics, but Napkin Math level of quick calculations.
What do you guys think?
Around the right ball park?
Rough analysis of Plasma Torpedo vs Phasers performance characteristics (TOS: Balance of Terror)
- Thread starter Kamen Rider Blade
- Start date
This persons analysis is based on real world physics, but Napkin Math level of quick calculations.
What do you guys think?
Around the right ball park?
Okay, first off skipped the parts with math. Some of these are my own thoughts separate from what I saw in the video.
There no way around that the chasing Romulan weapon fired at the Enterprse had a warp drive and a guidance system, it wasn't "just" a ball of plasma. Either all the weapons used in the episode possessed these, or the specific weapon fired at the Enterprise was a warp capable variant.
The weapons fired elsewhere in the episode did (to my eye) seem to accelerate after launch, while remaining at sublight speed. Why expend a warp drive if you didn't need too?
The Romulan weapon chasing the Enterprise at warp had limited range, maybe the plasma was what was fueling the weapon's warp drive. After a long flight, by the time it struck the Enterprise, this is what caused the plasma to be depleted?
What make the maker of the video assume that the TOS era starfleet torpedoes are hard shelled? We never see them during the series.
And if starfleet torpedoes can travel at warp speed, then they have warp drive.
No, nacelles are not necessary for warp speed. One example during TOS is Nomad which obviously was traveling at warp speed with no nacelles.
When there a disconnect between dialog and special effects, I tend to go with the dialog.
Kirk was clearly ordering the use of phasers, not torpedoes.
The special effect looks like neither the special effect of the later torpedo or phaser beam. Perhaps a eariler weapon that was replaced?
The Enterprise's fire if causing damage to the Romulan ship.
Can phaser "bolts" release their energy when they get in proximity to a traget?
Or the phasers are hitting the Romulan hull or shields.
Or are brushing the Romulan ship's hull, without directly hitting it.
There no way around that the chasing Romulan weapon fired at the Enterprse had a warp drive and a guidance system, it wasn't "just" a ball of plasma. Either all the weapons used in the episode possessed these, or the specific weapon fired at the Enterprise was a warp capable variant.
The weapons fired elsewhere in the episode did (to my eye) seem to accelerate after launch, while remaining at sublight speed. Why expend a warp drive if you didn't need too?
The Romulan weapon chasing the Enterprise at warp had limited range, maybe the plasma was what was fueling the weapon's warp drive. After a long flight, by the time it struck the Enterprise, this is what caused the plasma to be depleted?
What make the maker of the video assume that the TOS era starfleet torpedoes are hard shelled? We never see them during the series.
And if starfleet torpedoes can travel at warp speed, then they have warp drive.
No, nacelles are not necessary for warp speed. One example during TOS is Nomad which obviously was traveling at warp speed with no nacelles.
When there a disconnect between dialog and special effects, I tend to go with the dialog.
Kirk was clearly ordering the use of phasers, not torpedoes.
The special effect looks like neither the special effect of the later torpedo or phaser beam. Perhaps a eariler weapon that was replaced?
The Enterprise's fire if causing damage to the Romulan ship.
Can phaser "bolts" release their energy when they get in proximity to a traget?
Or the phasers are hitting the Romulan hull or shields.
Or are brushing the Romulan ship's hull, without directly hitting it.
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"Proximity Phasers" is what was described at one point...
The only thing that makes any sense is that - first off - Phasers are NOT Lasers (the name was changed after "The Cage") and have some capabilities that don't match up with Lasers. Secondly - it would seem that Phasers can be tuned, or otherwise configured, to produce a low-level fission/fusion type reaction at a specific distance from the ship. Serving a role similar to depth charges during WW1 and WW2.
Since the episode in question was directly derived from a WW2 based film called "The Enemy Below" - which involved a USN Destroyer Escort hunting down a German U-Boat, having some weapon similar in function to a depth charge made sense.
The only thing that makes any sense is that - first off - Phasers are NOT Lasers (the name was changed after "The Cage") and have some capabilities that don't match up with Lasers. Secondly - it would seem that Phasers can be tuned, or otherwise configured, to produce a low-level fission/fusion type reaction at a specific distance from the ship. Serving a role similar to depth charges during WW1 and WW2.
Since the episode in question was directly derived from a WW2 based film called "The Enemy Below" - which involved a USN Destroyer Escort hunting down a German U-Boat, having some weapon similar in function to a depth charge made sense.
TOS had issues distinguishing phasers and torpedoes in some eps, but we got the explanation in TNG (well, the Tech Manual) that torpedoes merely have a "warp sustainer" that allows them to stay at warp (for a finite period) if fired by a vessel already at warp. If fired at impulse. they can't accelerate to FTL.
From Star Trek Generations,
Worf: Sir, according to my calculations, a solar probe launched from either the Klingon ship or the planet's surface will take eleven seconds to reach the sun. However, since we do not have an exact point of origin, it will take us between eight and fifteen seconds to lock our weapons onto it.
In other words, Soren's probe would go to warp after a sublight launch, and the Enterprise-D's attacking torpedo would go to warp after a sublight launch.
The probe/missile looked much bigger than any shipboard torpedo. It takes light (speed = c) 8.3 minutes to go one AU. Assuming the planet is around this distance, too, then 11 seconds is speed = ~45c or ~Warp 3.5 assuming the cubed formula is accurate for planet to sun environments. The probe was definitely warp capable.
As to whether the Enterprise would intercept it with a torpedo is not clear, rather the ship could go to warp, run it down and zap it with phasers.
As to whether the Enterprise would intercept it with a torpedo is not clear, rather the ship could go to warp, run it down and zap it with phasers.
That information from the TNG Technical Manual would make much of the combat between the E and her sisterships in "The Ultimate Computer" all but impossible. I lend more canon credence to what was shown onscreen in TUC than what is in the TNG Technical Manual, no offense to the authors.
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I don't know what changed, but on-screen during 24th century the phasers are not used while in warp. Only torpedoes.
The plasma bolt looked to be a smoke ring torpid that was its own coil—perhaps entangled with the Enterprise’s own field.
I don’t think it was just plasma though, to slag those asteroids. Some antimatter yes, but if I had to do an autopsy on the Picard era warbird, I might have a white paper saying that the old Rom Bop weapon was the first instance of artificial singularities in Romulan designs, that they were produced in huge shipyards and loaded in some fashion—but it still took lots of energy to bring them to bear.
Disruptors and other tech were used more frequently?
I don’t think it was just plasma though, to slag those asteroids. Some antimatter yes, but if I had to do an autopsy on the Picard era warbird, I might have a white paper saying that the old Rom Bop weapon was the first instance of artificial singularities in Romulan designs, that they were produced in huge shipyards and loaded in some fashion—but it still took lots of energy to bring them to bear.
Disruptors and other tech were used more frequently?
As discussed in that other thread, phasers worked fine in the 24th century - the just weren't fired at warp during any of the episodes or movies of TNG. Shows like VOY, DS9 and ENT showed that phasers were no different from alien death rays in reaching their target regardless of the motion states.
If a phaser beam or bolt can keep on going at warp, why couldn't a cloud of plasma? The issue of steering could be entirely on the firing end, too: when a phaser emitter swivels, the whole beam turns like a rigid, well, beam of steel, rather than gracefully curving like water from a hose or a stream of bullets from a machine gun.
Okay, perhaps across light-seconds, we might see some curving in a phaser beam, too. But we never do, so we can't tell. It's quite possible that a force reaches out from the emitter and affects the path of a phaser beam at a great distance instantaneously - and that the same happens to the plasma cloud. After all, sensor and communication signals reach out to those distances (and much, much farther) instantaneously, too. Essentially, we have a super-duper tractor beam pushing deadly plasma at the enemy all the way: a snow rub at his face, rather than a snowball thrown at him.
Might be this is where the AQS power system kicks in: the Romulan ship channels all its power into the doodad that shepherds the plasma along at warp, thus becoming incapable of cloaking or moving. But when the weapon has been fired and has hit its target or missed, the AQS system is diverted to powering warp and cloak for the cowardly retreat, and Scotty thus can't make heads or tails of how this happened when moments before, the ship had no warp power.
Why the plasma bolt fails to kill Kirk is then for one of these reasons:
1) The Romulans can't reach that far with their pusher beam.
2) The Romulans can't sustain their pusher beam for any longer.
3) The Romulans get cold feet and shut down their pusher beam, out of fear of getting fired back at.
4) While the pusher beam still works, the plasma can't hold together / remain hot for any longer.
And why the plasma bolts in "Deadly Years" fail to kill Kirk again is then for this reason:
0) Power allocation. In a maneuvering fight, you just can't dedicate all your oomph to shepherding a maximum-yield charge to the target, so you fire smaller plasma bolts with more steering authority while yourself remaining capable of movement.
Timo Saloniemi
If a phaser beam or bolt can keep on going at warp, why couldn't a cloud of plasma? The issue of steering could be entirely on the firing end, too: when a phaser emitter swivels, the whole beam turns like a rigid, well, beam of steel, rather than gracefully curving like water from a hose or a stream of bullets from a machine gun.
Okay, perhaps across light-seconds, we might see some curving in a phaser beam, too. But we never do, so we can't tell. It's quite possible that a force reaches out from the emitter and affects the path of a phaser beam at a great distance instantaneously - and that the same happens to the plasma cloud. After all, sensor and communication signals reach out to those distances (and much, much farther) instantaneously, too. Essentially, we have a super-duper tractor beam pushing deadly plasma at the enemy all the way: a snow rub at his face, rather than a snowball thrown at him.
Might be this is where the AQS power system kicks in: the Romulan ship channels all its power into the doodad that shepherds the plasma along at warp, thus becoming incapable of cloaking or moving. But when the weapon has been fired and has hit its target or missed, the AQS system is diverted to powering warp and cloak for the cowardly retreat, and Scotty thus can't make heads or tails of how this happened when moments before, the ship had no warp power.
Why the plasma bolt fails to kill Kirk is then for one of these reasons:
1) The Romulans can't reach that far with their pusher beam.
2) The Romulans can't sustain their pusher beam for any longer.
3) The Romulans get cold feet and shut down their pusher beam, out of fear of getting fired back at.
4) While the pusher beam still works, the plasma can't hold together / remain hot for any longer.
And why the plasma bolts in "Deadly Years" fail to kill Kirk again is then for this reason:
0) Power allocation. In a maneuvering fight, you just can't dedicate all your oomph to shepherding a maximum-yield charge to the target, so you fire smaller plasma bolts with more steering authority while yourself remaining capable of movement.
Timo Saloniemi
I think the major reason that the Romulans largely abandon the Plasma Torpedo is due to their linear travel path.
Long Range Disrupter beams already serve the same function, and that would be considered a more efficient use of energy.
Long Range Disrupter beams already serve the same function, and that would be considered a more efficient use of energy.
The long range of the plasma bolt is impressive:
I don't think the Romulan "TOW-Plasma Bolt" stands up to those ranges, so, it must be self-guided, and travel at high warp speeds. As a comparison, the Nomad torpedo travelled at warp 15, and because of this great speed, the Enterprise was unable to outmaneuver or outrun it. In the BOP case, the ship was able to outrun it until it dissipated, so, it seems that the Romulan plasma bolt was barely faster than warp 6, and nowhere near as fast as the Nomad bolt of warp 15.
Enterprise travelled for 2 minutes at emergency warp (in this case, let's assume warp 6 to be conservative, but it could be higher). If we use the conservative cubed formula, warp 6 is 216c and at 2 minutes, the ship travelled 0.01 lys or about 59 billion miles!
I don't think the Romulan "TOW-Plasma Bolt" stands up to those ranges, so, it must be self-guided, and travel at high warp speeds. As a comparison, the Nomad torpedo travelled at warp 15, and because of this great speed, the Enterprise was unable to outmaneuver or outrun it. In the BOP case, the ship was able to outrun it until it dissipated, so, it seems that the Romulan plasma bolt was barely faster than warp 6, and nowhere near as fast as the Nomad bolt of warp 15.
My concept of the BOP plasma bolt is launched from a linear accelerator at a high warp speed. If it is just a dumb ball of plasma in a self-contained magnetic field, then it can't be self-guided, so, it must be more. As to it's guidance system, it continues to be Romulan security secret.
I'm not sure range would be a fatal problem here. Supposedly, navigational deflectors have to reach far ahead, quite possibly a minute or two ahead of the ship. This would just be a beefed-up deflector working on a cloud of light gases.
Possibly the Romulans could also have been giving chase. For various reasons, it appears that the initial estimate about the speed discrepancy between the players either didn't amount to sublight vs. warp 8, or was assumed to but falsely so. If the former, the Romulans applying warp 3 or whatever after launch would oppose Kirk's attempt at opening the range, even if they couldn't completely thwart it. If the latter, we can't actually tell that the Romulans would have been any slower than Kirk's ship, not from any of the events. For all we know, they were faster, and squandered their speed advantage by trying to remain stealthy!
OTOH, if the plasma burp is autonomous, perhaps it is simply magnetic? It might be devoid of any mechanism as such: sheer electromagnetism might be at play, or then there's a force of nature that couples the plasma to Kirk's shields which our hero was too stupid to drop, or to warp fields, or warp cores...
Timo Saloniemi
Possibly the Romulans could also have been giving chase. For various reasons, it appears that the initial estimate about the speed discrepancy between the players either didn't amount to sublight vs. warp 8, or was assumed to but falsely so. If the former, the Romulans applying warp 3 or whatever after launch would oppose Kirk's attempt at opening the range, even if they couldn't completely thwart it. If the latter, we can't actually tell that the Romulans would have been any slower than Kirk's ship, not from any of the events. For all we know, they were faster, and squandered their speed advantage by trying to remain stealthy!
OTOH, if the plasma burp is autonomous, perhaps it is simply magnetic? It might be devoid of any mechanism as such: sheer electromagnetism might be at play, or then there's a force of nature that couples the plasma to Kirk's shields which our hero was too stupid to drop, or to warp fields, or warp cores...
Timo Saloniemi
There's an interesting Youtube video out there which postulates that the plasma weapon was able to get entangled in the outer edges of the Enterprise's warp field, just getting dragged along after that, slowly closing the distance. Enterprise veering off would make no difference and they couldn't cancel the warp field without dropping out of warp and getting pummelled!
I agree with Resurrected StarShips analysis.
It makes the most sense given what you see on screen.
Kirk "Wasn't Expecting" a Plasma Bolt labelled as a "Plasma Torpedo".
When he "Emergency Warped" backwards, he was a bit slow on giving the order and the Plasma Bolt got caught in the outter edges of the Warp Bubble, ergo he had to "Reverse @ Warp Speeds" long enough for the Ball to dissipate into a lower energy state, ergo when it hit the Enterprise's shields, it didn't hit nearly as hard as a close ranger version would have.
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I concur, but if it's your first time dealing with a new weapon type from a enemy, some things are bound to surprise you.
