Poll Are you enjoying Section 31?

[Gonzo]

I think many would prefer that S31 stay out of any potential Pike/Enterprise show if possible.

Personally I wouldn't mind if we see S31 a bit to muddy the water at times but it should be used sparingly.

I like S31 as you all know but I still don't think there is enough to base an entire show on it, no doubt the show runners already have a plot and S1 all mapped out, happy to keep an open mind on it though.

 

[Jadeb]

I like S31 as you all know but I still don't think there is enough to base an entire show on it, no doubt the show runners already have a plot and S1 all mapped out, happy to keep an open mind on it though.

I admire your optimism after the first two seasons of Discovery.

 

[fireproof78]

I like S31 as you all know but I still don't think there is enough to base an entire show on it, no doubt the show runners already have a plot and S1 all mapped out, happy to keep an open mind on it though.

Same here. I think it is an interesting opportunity to explore this organization in a different way.

 

[Timo]

...Or a different organization, as it may turn out to be. It's not as if the Freemasons of any given century would be much related to those of another, either, in any practical sense. What used to be a secret cabal within Earth's Starfleet may have donated nothing but its name to a specialist division of UFP Starfleet Intelligence, perhaps as an in-universe in-joke of some sort (in line with "Hey, what if we use NCIA as the next fake registry on our intel cutter? Get it, boss? Huh? Huh?"). And when that division falls into infamy, there's always the next cabal to pick up the good name and the cool theme colors.

Yes, I'm sure the great arc of the S31 story has already been erected in full. And yes, if precedent is anything to go by, we will get two of those per each season: the intended one, and the haphazard replacement when the first one comes crashing down. At least twice the fun, then!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kpnuts]

I didn't vote yet because I can't speak for DSC's S31 since I haven't caught up that far. But I will say that it worked in DS9 because you never knew if the organization actually existed or if it was just Sloan and his cronies fucking with Sisko and Bashir's heads. Now that it's clear that it's just the KGB in space, it sounds pretty lame.

Discovery has the subtlety of a sledgehammer. In more than just story-telling.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Section 31 never worked.

It was stupid then. It's stupid now.

 

[Yistaan]

The interesting thing about Section 31 in Discovery was that it showed how different Prime Pike was from Kelvin Pike.

Kelvin Pike was hinted to be involved with Section 31, given his association with Admiral Marcus and the cadet-to-Captain business with Kelvin Kirk that was seemingly implied to be a Section 31 plot to have Marcus have a naive captain he could control. (The IDW comics, while non-canon, further show this).

Prime Pike is really against Section 31. It's not clear where Admiral Marcus stands or what he's up to in the Prime timeline, although he may have recruited Pike into Starfleet like in the Kelvin Timeline depending on when exactly Pike's recruitment date was (probably pre-split as new canon implied Pike is the same age as Georgiou).

 

[fireproof78]

with Section 31, given his association with Admiral Marcus

I never figured Pike was Section 31 from that movie.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Me neither.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Pike says he gave Kirk the Enterprise because he saw greatness in him. It's possible Marcus gave it the okay for his own reasons, though.

Although the timelines don't mesh up (ST'09 is 2258 and Disco S2 is 2257), Anson Mount's Pike feels like Bruce Greenwood's in his prime.

 

[ChristopherPike]

If Greenwood Pike was meant to be Section 31, it must've been a shock revelation from the Orci plot for Beyond that didn't happen then. I suppose the exact same creative team of ST09/STID, of JJ, Kurtzman and Orci together, wouldn't let a little thing like death prevent them having a role for Greenwood, in flashback some how.

 

[Yistaan]

If Greenwood Pike was meant to be Section 31, it must've been a shock revelation from the Orci plot for Beyond that didn't happen then. I suppose the exact same creative team of ST09/STID, of JJ, Kurtzman and Orci together, wouldn't let a little thing like death prevent them having a role for Greenwood, in flashback some how.

It's more pronounced in the IDW comics (which Orci I think consulted with). Marcus and Pike are seen plotting together covering things up. Kirk almost finds out about one of their coverups and Marcus chews Pike out for not keeping him in line more.

 

[fireproof78]

It's more pronounced in the IDW comics (which Orci I think consulted with). Marcus and Pike are seen plotting together covering things up. Kirk almost finds out about one of their coverups and Marcus chews Pike out for not keeping him in line more.

Which means nothing to the films. As I said, there is no implication within the films themselves to indicate Pike as participating in S31 at all. He gave Kirk the ship because he had proven to capable of leadership only for Kirk to completely screw it up. Marcus giving Kirk the ship back had nothing to do with his capability and everything to do with his gullibility.

 

[The Wormhole]

It's more pronounced in the IDW comics (which Orci I think consulted with). Marcus and Pike are seen plotting together covering things up. Kirk almost finds out about one of their coverups and Marcus chews Pike out for not keeping him in line more.

That wasn't Marcus. That was a shady group of officers who Pike was known to associate with in the earlier issues who many at the time believed were supposed to be Section 31. Granted, they may well have been, given in that same issue we see them trying to recruit Sulu and later on when Section 31 are officially added to the storyline they have instead gotten Sulu's sister since he turned them down, but not once is it established that any of the officers we see Pike meeting with were meant to be Marcus.

But again, all this is moot since the movies themselves don't indicate Pike was involved with Section 31. Indeed, aside from the implication Marcus inspired Pike to join Starfleet, there's no real indication of a history between Marcus and Pike.

 

[Yistaan]

That wasn't Marcus. That was a shady group of officers who Pike was known to associate with in the earlier issues who many at the time believed were supposed to be Section 31. Granted, they may well have been, given in that same issue we see them trying to recruit Sulu and later on when Section 31 are officially added to the storyline they have instead gotten Sulu's sister since he turned them down, but not once is it established that any of the officers we see Pike meeting with were meant to be Marcus.

But again, all this is moot since the movies themselves don't indicate Pike was involved with Section 31. Indeed, aside from the implication Marcus inspired Pike to join Starfleet, there's no real indication of a history between Marcus and Pike.

You're forgetting Countdown to Darkness, where Pike does cover up evil Admiral Robert April and then tells Kirk to run along and go freeze a volcano or something (the opening of Into Darkness). And Orci is in the writing credits of this comic, so it's clear he did have shady intentions for Pike.

You are right though that the only thing left of this onscreen is Marcus recruiting Pike. And as this may very well include Prime Pike, this probably doesn't mean anything anymore.

 

[fireproof78]

You're forgetting Countdown to Darkness, where Pike does cover up evil Admiral Robert April and then tells Kirk to run along and go freeze a volcano or something (the opening of Into Darkness). And Orci is in the writing credits of this comic, so it's clear he did have shady intentions for Pike.

You are right though that the only thing left of this onscreen is Marcus recruiting Pike. And as this may very well include Prime Pike, this probably doesn't mean anything anymore.

I think that it showed Pike's loyalty to Marcus, and willing to defer to his senior's judgement. The only aspect that might be shady is Pike referring to Starfleet Intelligence, and not willing to indulge in Kirk's sanctimonious frustration at Pike not telling him why.

Still not seeing Pike as shady.

 

[The Wormhole]

You're forgetting Countdown to Darkness, where Pike does cover up evil Admiral Robert April and then tells Kirk to run along and go freeze a volcano or something (the opening of Into Darkness). And Orci is in the writing credits of this comic, so it's clear he did have shady intentions for Pike.

1) April wasn't an Admiral in the comic, only a Captain.
2) We only know Pike ordered Kirk to remove the matter from the official record, but we don't know where the order originated.
3) April was still sentenced to prison, so "cover up" is the wrong term to use. The matter was simply classified not covered up. Nothing shady about that.
4) Orci is only credited for story development, which usually just means the general plot was his idea, not that he was responsible for everything that went on.
5) Regardless, the video game prequel to STID which Orci also shares a story credit on also ends with Pike getting in contact with Kirk immediately after their Gorn thing is done and telling him to go on the volcano mission.

So the only thing in the comics hinting at Pike being in league with Section 31 was their Return of the Archons adaptation, and even that ended up being ignored later on.

 

[Timo]

....Naturally, in that timeframe, S31 would simply be an over-the-counter division of Starfleet Intelligence, tasked with threat analysis and the like. And, conversely, SFI would have plenty of covert ops assets for shady work that have nothing to do with S31, and instead belong to S47 or S13 or whatever.

That is, until one of 'em new age Treks says otherwise, I want to believe that SFI in the TOS era actually features Sections in its organization chart, and the staff of one of them is giggling with sophomoric glee for having chosen a number that reminds them of a notorious 22nd century secret society. And/or obliquely hints at the ambiguous bit in the old UE Starfleet Charter.

Which of course doesn't mean that half the folks working for the over-the-counter S31 of SFI wouldn't additionally be members of this secret society and doing the Secret Hand Signs and Tuesday Evening Cabals and all. Or that those in S47 or Auxiliary Logistics Division wouldn't be.

Timo Saloniemi