Its Abrams. And both Trek and Wars did it long before Abrams did it.
Would Into Darkness have been a better film if Khan was not the villain?
- Thread starter The Overlord
- Start date
Could be, though as Federation Historian pointed out, it's doubtful McCoy would not have done so. Or that there wouldn't be some info, somewhere, like Cold Station-12? The wrinkle here as well is Data's "ancestor" and his Augments. Was the 'magic blood' just something Khan possessed or a genetic trait of Eugenics War era Augments? It opened cans of worms that didn't even need to be opened.
I had a similar idea with Marcus creating Harrison, though in the past I also had an idea of Cumberbatch just playing another person on the Botany Bay instead of Khan (absent the magic blood). The Kelvinverse movies didn't play around enough with the alternate reality. I think it could've been interesting if in the alternate reality that Khan died, like he was about to in "Space Seed" and another Augment is thrust into taking care of his brethren. I think that would've made him even more obsessed with protecting them.
I also would've thought it was interesting if they had kept Kirk dead and made Spock captain for Star Trek Beyond.
Why not open it? Its interesting discussion, realistic in its possiblity and works within the story and the world.
They also didn't spell out for us how much faster his eye muscles can twitch, how much more efficient his kidneys are, or how much better his hearing is. It just never came up. Try inserting a line about his platelets in Space Seed and show me where it fits XD
I do agree with these points that the Kelvin movies didn't do more with the alternate universe.
However, I disagree about Kirk's death and I see no problems with the blood treatment.
As regards the nature of Khan's blood, it's actually a weapon that Khan wields early on in the movie in order to set his plan in motion. Without the magic blood, he could not coerce the honorable Section 31 operative into bombing his own facility.
Odds are, then, that this Chekov's gun is in fact something manufactured by Khan specifically for his tactical needs. In "Space Seed" and TWoK, his blood might have been ordinary - superior, but ordinary. Yet here, with access to the best 23rd century tech that S31 could offer, he would have been able to engineer the required qualities into himself.
It is interesting to try and figure out which parts of Khan's actions were sanctioned by his controller, which were done in supposed secrecy but were nevertheless found out by Marcus, and which were successfully done in secret (even if Marcus would later claim he was on top of the game). The one thing that keeps this movie afloat is the presence of two competing villains, each more vile than the audience has any right to expect initially. And there is so much plot there that only a tiny bit of it fits on screen: the villains just keep on giving, in backstory and implied actions and more.
Timo Saloniemi
Odds are, then, that this Chekov's gun is in fact something manufactured by Khan specifically for his tactical needs. In "Space Seed" and TWoK, his blood might have been ordinary - superior, but ordinary. Yet here, with access to the best 23rd century tech that S31 could offer, he would have been able to engineer the required qualities into himself.
It is interesting to try and figure out which parts of Khan's actions were sanctioned by his controller, which were done in supposed secrecy but were nevertheless found out by Marcus, and which were successfully done in secret (even if Marcus would later claim he was on top of the game). The one thing that keeps this movie afloat is the presence of two competing villains, each more vile than the audience has any right to expect initially. And there is so much plot there that only a tiny bit of it fits on screen: the villains just keep on giving, in backstory and implied actions and more.
Timo Saloniemi
Either Khan's blood is different in the two timelines, or McCoy Prime never bothered to run whatever check McKelvin did which revealed it.
Personally I love the idea that this is the stuff outlawed by the Federation. That in Trek's world they've had this since the 1970's. Trek's ban on genetic engineering has never made much sense, this hangs a massive lampshade on it.
And in a world where they've totally changed the 23rd century in Discovery and soon Strange New Worlds, I'm amazed people are still bothered by these kinds of things.
Personally I love the idea that this is the stuff outlawed by the Federation. That in Trek's world they've had this since the 1970's. Trek's ban on genetic engineering has never made much sense, this hangs a massive lampshade on it.
And in a world where they've totally changed the 23rd century in Discovery and soon Strange New Worlds, I'm amazed people are still bothered by these kinds of things.
Why? I'm amazed that the term "magic blood" keeps floating around even though blood based therapies are a real thing. I'm also amazed at how Abrams continues to be treated after so many years in this fandom. But, it appears to be the nature of the fandom and questioning it seems to bear no fruit.
Khan spent a LOT more time with 23rd century tech in the Kelvinverse than in the Prime timeline. He could have easily augmented himself more using 23rd century tech in the Kelvin line. This would not only explain the regenerative blood, but also the drastic change in appearance.
Also, his blood was indirectly mentioned in TOS. They bring up his resistance to disease, which could be a reference to his white blood cells. Being stronger than the average human could be due to an augment that stops muscles from degrading over time (as they do with us "normal" humans).
Also, his blood was indirectly mentioned in TOS. They bring up his resistance to disease, which could be a reference to his white blood cells. Being stronger than the average human could be due to an augment that stops muscles from degrading over time (as they do with us "normal" humans).
Arik Soong flat out says in ENT they suffer no illness and the technology could have cured Archer's father. Sounds like a close enough* fit to me.
*close enough by the standards of Star Trek continuity, which let's face it is pretty much anything goes.
*close enough by the standards of Star Trek continuity, which let's face it is pretty much anything goes.
They didn't need to do that, just like the writers didn't need to include magic blood into Into Darkness. It was done to give them a cheap death and a cheaper way out of it.
That being said, Khan did boast about having five times Kirk's strength though they didn't go into the kind of detail you are talking about here. The idea of Prime McCoy discovering Khan's magic blood in "Space Seed" and the implications of such a find could've been an entire episode. Further, Khan could've dangled his magic blood over Kirk and the Federation to get a ship or a planet or whatever. But that didn't happen because it's a good assumption Prime Khan didn't possess the magic blood that Kelvin Khan did.
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If that had been spelled out, that the magic blood was something Khan cooked up that would've been fine. Heck, the idea of Marcus going after Khan because of the magic blood might have made for a better story than what we got.
Nice blurring of the lines there.
I take issue with Into Darkness because I thought Khan's inclusion was unnecessary and Cumberbatch, while a good actor and portrayed a good villain in the film, was no Ricardo Montalban, and his "Khan" was lacking because of it.
But I had little problem with Trek '09. I had a lot of doubt going into it, but I thought it was a very well done, exciting film. I think the alternate reality casting was good, the action the most epic and well-executed in Trek (though Discovery might be giving it a run for it's money).
Can't remember the exact "Space Seed" quote, but I think it's apt for this discussion. We can admire someone and be opposed to them at the same time. That being said, I think Abrams brought good things and bad things to Trek. He re-energized the franchise when it needed it badly. He came the closest since TNG into giving Trek broad pop culture appeal.
I just think Into Darkness was a big creative fumble and the Kelvinverse never recovered. All that being said, I enjoy what Abrams did with Trek more than Star Wars.
I agree at Khan's inclusion being unnecessary but I think Cumberbatch did great with Khan and made it his own. He was never going to be Montalban because that's an impossible standard.
I do agree that the Kelvinverse never fully recovered, though the long time between films didn't help either.
And, yeah, I do like Abrams Trek over his Star Wars.
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Why spelled out? Trek in general could use far less spelling out.
Heck, the basic premise of ST:ID already is that the story depends on the backstory. We need to know who Khan is (ancient man of extraordinary means and ambition; thawed, but his crew is not), and this is spelled out in the movie - but had Khan not already existed, something like five more minutes of straight dialogue would have needed for that at the very least.
We also want his superpowers to manifest, but exhaustively listing them would be just plain silly, much like those gadgets of James Bond that somehow all prove vital to the plot. Yet in the best Bond tradition, there is this moment of revelation where a superpower introduced early on actually proves decisive towards the end. It just gets played out differently, the audience having to think back and remember that moment when Bond pocketed that innocuous-looking syringe from Q's side table, after having spotted from the corner of his eye the demonstration of the syringe's awesome powers in some faraway corner of the lab, slightly off focus and devoid of exposition...
I loved every bit of the plot exactly because there was so little spelling out. We have to figure out why two lying bastards would be doing the things they do, and whether they did half the things they claim they or their opponent did. It's deception upon deception, but not in a way that would detract from the enjoyment, because the ultimate truth is that both Khan and Marcus are bad guys, and the deader, the better. It's just fun that at various moments of the adventure, one could be seen as having wronged the other more - until the next moment comes and the positions flip, and we finally find out that the heroes really should do some more wronging to both.
Timo Saloniemi
We can all thank Orci for Harrison being Khan, Kurtzman wanted him to just be John Harrison but unfortunately lost that argument. I think the film would, maybe, have been better received if it was just Harrison and not Khan. However, STID is the Best Star Trek film to date in my opinion and remains so in my list and the only reason I would change it, would be to stop the immense whining about this film, though some viewers probably would've found something else to harp on if it wasn't Khan being Khan. Especially since I think most of that is because people won't accept this is not the Prime timeline, Spock will not be the same Spock because of #reasons and that yes this movie was necessary for the story arc of Nu-Kirk. But I do think there was enough going on that John Harrison could have just been an augment Marcus created without him being Khan. Not sure it could have been better to me though.
The only thing I would've added would've been some scenes dealing with the mental trauma the events in the first film caused. I've always thought the opening scene with Nibiru was about more than just showing Kirk being reckless, it was more the whole crew. Maybe if they had some scenes dealing with that there would have been less viewers brushing off life changing trauma as motivation for actions in this film.
The only thing I would've added would've been some scenes dealing with the mental trauma the events in the first film caused. I've always thought the opening scene with Nibiru was about more than just showing Kirk being reckless, it was more the whole crew. Maybe if they had some scenes dealing with that there would have been less viewers brushing off life changing trauma as motivation for actions in this film.
The "magic blood" arguement is supposed to be representative of how laughably bad the science is in Abrams Trek, even though scientists have used blood therapies to repair radiation damage in the real world, but somehow that crosses a line that's sillier than aliens being able to breed with humans, matter transportation or traveling faster than light.
