TMP is the best film. It is not 'tedious' at all

[CorporalCaptain]

I think most later Trek movie makers came away with the wrong lessons from TMP's failings and TWoK's successes (with a long line of petty, relatively dull villains like Nero, Ru'afro, Soran, Kruge, Khan 2.0, and Shinzon, etc).

I don't know that that was a result of Star Trek filmmakers emulating other Star Trek filmmakers.

For one thing, TVH was quite successful, and a departure from the villain formula. If what you say were going on, then I'd think that TVH would also have been a prototype for future films.

For another, the assumption that every protagonist needs an antagonist comes from the general theory of narratives™. It's not confined to Star Trek.

 

[TedShatner10]

For one thing, TVH was quite successful, and a departure from the villain formula.

Well the Whale Probe was a very similar antagonist/obstacle to V'Ger (they're not typical bad guys, but much more like impersonal, vast forces of nature).

The fake Biblical God creature from TFF was similar but not as well executed.

If what you say were going on, then I'd think that TVH would also have been a prototype for future films.

Well First Contact is similar on hindsight.

 

[fireproof78]

I think most later Trek movie makers came away with the wrong lessons from TMP's failings and TWoK's successes (with a long line of petty, relatively dull villains like Nero, Ru'afro, Soran, Kruge, Khan 2.0, and Shinzon, etc).

I do agree that they learned the wrong lessons, though revenge has been a part of human storytelling for a long time, so its hard to say its just a Trek thing.

But, I appreciate both Nero and Khan, largely because they are variations on theme of revenge. On the surface, of course its revenge, but Nero and Khan are interesting characters in their own right.

Mileage will vary.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well the Whale Probe was a very similar antagonist/obstacle to V'Ger (they're not typical bad guys, but much more like impersonal, vast forces of nature).

Yes.

In fact, in the case of TVH, the actual villain is humanity ourselves. The Whale Probe creates the conflict to make that clear in the story.

The fake Biblical God creature from TFF was similar but not as well executed.

Story-wise, Sybok was always the more immediate antagonist to Kirk. Finding his god and his creation planet are his motivations.

Well First Contact is similar on hindsight.

Yeah, I can see that. Even though the Earth of the past in FC isn't present-day Earth, but still technically an Earth of our future, in many ways it's a surrogate for present-day Earth. Much of the humor comes from bridging relations between people who are practically contemporary and people with "futuristic" values.

The important difference is that the villain-figure of the Borg Queen doesn't really have an analog in TVH, so defeating her, Data's temptations, and Picard's lingering PTSD from having been Locutus are all without analog. Also, emerging from WWIII is more extreme than living with money, dialysis, and whaling.

Still, good point about the similarity between TVH and FC, if I understand what you're saying.

 

[TedShatner10]

Yes.

In fact, in the case of TVH, the actual villain is humanity ourselves. The Whale Probe creates the conflict to make that clear in the story.

V'Ger and the Whale Probe are gigantic space faring AI gods passing judgement on humanity for initially cryptic reasons (V'Ger's lesson is extreme power and technology hobbled by innocent curiosity and incompleteness, trying to find kinship not unlike the Whale Probe really).

Story-wise, Sybok was always the more immediate antagonist to Kirk. Finding his god and his creation planet are his motivations.

Sybok was supposedly based on Televangelists (charismatic conmen). Some people think TFF is arguably better than TMP, mainly due to the warmth of the '89 cast going on hijinks in comparison to the estranged crew onboard a beige hospital like refit USS Enterprise from '79 (even if TFF falls shorter production wise, with a more cheesy and sleazy feel in comparison to the more lavish and earnest TMP).

 

[publiusr]

TMP did have that huge canvas but a distant feel— as if society underwent a sea change of some kind—as if a Covid outbreak took place in 2008 when optimism was high but folks wary—this is due to Wise’s handling but I wonder what an in-universe explanation might be...

 

[Pauln6]

Technically, the duty uniforms were reworked from TMP to the cadet uniforms in TWOK

It's interesting that the additional piping around the shoulders and a collar make them look more like a uniform. The Discovery uniforms use this method alongside more heavily padded shoulders. In the absence of two tone uniforms, I wonder if just making the piping darker would do the trick on the originals.

I do wish they had mixed up the plots of the movies more. I would have liked more espionage thrillers.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I still prefer Spock's costume than those full of seams hack job done in TWOK. It's such an evolution to TOS wardrobe... Gosh darn it, if only Wise and Roddenberry honored TOS color schemes.

 

[fireproof78]

I still prefer Spock's costume than those full of seams hack job done in TWOK. It's such an evolution to TOS wardrobe... Gosh darn it, if only Wise and Roddenberry honored TOS color schemes.

The TMP uniforms had potential but I cannot stand the color scheme or the tight fit. It does not look comfortable.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I'd rather that than those TWOK outfits especially when those actors had the weight gain. TMP costumes don't look tight, it was fitted; properly measured for the performers.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd rather that than those TWOK outfits especially when those actors had the weight gain. TMP costumes don't look tight, it was fitted; properly measured for the performers.

"Fitted" then. Still look incredibly uncomfortable.

The actors would not have looked good in the TMP with weight gain either. The TWOKs are not my favorite uniform, as I like the cleaner lines of the TMP uniform, but the cut and color is a no go for me.

 

[STEPhon IT]

True and that point if the actors could not fit to measure IMO than it's time for them to move on and clearly they're too old to be those characters. Star Trek to me looks better visually when the actors are fit and the outfits support their form. As for the colors of TMP, I hated them too.

 

[fireproof78]

True and that point if the actors could not fit to measure IMO than it's time for them to move on and clearly they're too old to be those characters. Star Trek to me looks better visually when the actors are fit and the outfits support their form. As for the colors of TMP, I hated them too.

Fit isn't my requirement depending on the story.

 

[Pauln6]

"Fitted" then. Still look incredibly uncomfortable.

The actors would not have looked good in the TMP with weight gain either. The TWOKs are not my favorite uniform, as I like the cleaner lines of the TMP uniform, but the cut and color is a no go for me.

The cut of the Discovery Enterprise uniforms is closer to what I would have liked to see for TMP, with a neater collar.

 

[Morgan Primus]

I have never understood why people cal the original movie 'tedious'. I personally love TMP with a passion and would love to see the scenes of Kirk and Scotty approaching the Enterprise extended to an even longer length.

The same can be said with the sequence of the Enterprise entering the maelstrom. I wish it were even longer. So beautiful, so interesting. I often watch this sequence on a loop as I find it utterly captivating. Definitely the best sequence in the film.

I also have great appreciation for the muted tones of the costumes. The cream costumes just look so beautiful on the screen as opposed to the garish red jackets in TWOK.

TMP is the only Trek movie that truly looks like a cinema film.
In my opinion, anyone who finds the film tedious is not a true Trekker.

- Spock's Eyebrow

I loved TMP, and the uniforms look much more comfortable than TWOK woolies, which make me sweat just looking at them.

The sequence where Kirk is looking over the Enterprise refit in drydock is a fast forward moment for me though.

 

[dupersuper]

In my opinion, anyone who finds the film tedious is not a true Trekker.

Not cool.

 

[Pauln6]

Not cool.

Trekkers are a mixed bunch for sure. Some even like Star Wars.

 

[plynch]

Not cool.

Seconded.

As to the film. Yeah, it's dull when in the belly of the whale.

I'm very fond of it. I've rewatched it on video twice, which is more than the other films except maybe Khan.

TMP is a FILM. Props for that, in the era now where every flick has to be a comic-bookish action blockbuster with set-piece after set-piece. (Spock smashing Khan with his fist on top of a bus or train or something just came to mind from STID.)

Sure got variety with the TOS flicks. 1. Sci-fi FILM!
2. Fun space action-adventure w/ Khan scenery chewing;
3. a character movie someone said is really three distinct acts/vibes;
4. Fun romp with fun actors;
5. Very TOS, fun space adventure w/ character moments and attempt at message ("pain good");
6. Shakespearean space opera with grandiosity.

So I'm ok with TMP being a bit on the dull side. It tried to show us as if Star Trek were real. (No fisticuffs of the week as network TV pretty much required.) And it didn't focus on a mustache-twirling, pissed off villain. Huzzah!

 

[fireproof78]

Trekkers are a mixed bunch for sure. Some even like Star Wars.

I see no reason why not to like both...

 

[DonIago]

Heresy!!!