• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Starship Design in Star Trek: Picard

Do those episodes have a massive 400 ship face-off in them? No. So the comparison isn't valid. Picard DID have that.
The scene was sufficient.

It's unrealistic to expect them to execute a big moment in the season finale well? Unrealistic to expect them to make a nice visual? Come on.
To expect to be "Wowed" by this brief scene that has been admitted in this thread of not being the be all, end all? Yeah, I think its unrealistic. I think it is being dissected in a way both unfair and unloving. I think that starship scenes have been done well in DSC and Picard, and despite myself actually enjoyed the La Sirena at times.

I think expectations are off and that's just my (apparently delusional) opinion.
 
Their rescue armada was destroyed. Their actual fleet would have been intact still. If anything the fact that a copy and pasted fleet turns up even contradicts what happened at Utopia Planitia.

The rescue fleet was destroyed in 2386. Clancy mentions to Picard that right after that, Starfleet didn't have enough ships to replace the rescue fleet. We then see 200+ Inquiry class ships in 2399. One can only assume from all this that none of those Inquiry class ships existed in 2386, and were only built in the 13 years between the attack and the start of PIC.
 
The rescue fleet was destroyed in 2386. Clancy mentions to Picard that right after that, Starfleet didn't have enough ships to replace the rescue fleet. We see 200+ Inquiry class ships. One can only assume from all this that none of those Inquiry class ships existed in 2386, and were only built in the 13 years between the attack and the start of PIC.
I would assume so, yes.
 
I'm not asking them to re-write the finale, remove story elements and to place the entire emphasis on the fleet face off. Nor am I asking them to include 30 minutes of CG fly-throughs of the ships.

I'm just asking them to make 1 visual effects scene better. Not the greatest shot the human race has ever made. Just decent. That's all.

The story stays intact. The whole premise of the show is the same. Just 1 visual effects moment to give fans of ship porn something to smile about. Simple.
 
The rescue fleet was destroyed in 2386. Clancy mentions to Picard that right after that, Starfleet didn't have enough ships to replace the rescue fleet. We then see 200+ Inquiry class ships in 2399. One can only assume from all this that none of those Inquiry class ships existed in 2386, and were only built in the 13 years between the attack and the start of PIC.

Why would you assume that?

What happened to their actual fleet that wasn't part of the rescue one they were building?
 
Why would you assume that?

What happened to their actual fleet that wasn't part of the rescue one they were building?

Clancy states that there weren't enough ships available to continue the rescue operation. That means that either most Starfleet vessels up to that point were destroyed or mothballed (the latter of which Picard himself mentions that he couldn't even get authority to acquire those), or they were all on other missions. Since Clancy is not specific as to why there weren't enough ships, we don't know the answer. But Picard does not correct her, so we have to take Clancy's statement at face value. It would also explain why we only saw one new class of ship in the finale, and no older ships.
 
Clancy states that there weren't enough ships available to continue the rescue operation. That means that either most Starfleet vessels up to that point were destroyed or mothballed (the latter of which Picard himself mentions that he couldn't even get authority to acquire those), or they were all on other missions. Since Clancy is not specific as to why there weren't enough ships, we don't know the answer. But Picard does not correct her, so we have to take Clancy's statement at face value. It would also explain why we only saw one class of ship in the finale, and no older ships.

Tons of assumptions made there to try and explain away what was basically a budget-saving decision in the finale.

Starfleet is in a pretty sorry state if their entire fleet is wiped out and then they make 200 of the same design and specification to replace it. It's just unrealistic.

Look it's the same reason they reused Discovery era shuttles (and Discovery era starships in the Trek Short), laziness and/or cost cutting.
 
The story stays intact. The whole premise of the show is the same. Just 1 visual effects moment to give fans of ship porn something to smile about. Simple.
And while that would have been nice to have I wonder how much it would have cost? Genuine curiosity. More than that, I have no doubt that some "great fan" can do it "properly" once it is released on Blu-Ray and they can snag the scene.

I, for one, shall await, with baited breath.
 
Tons of assumptions made there to try and explain away what was basically a budget-saving decision in the finale.

I'm making logical assumptions based on what I saw and what was stated. It has nothing to do with IRL budget issues.

Starfleet is in a pretty sorry state if their entire fleet is wiped out and then they make 200 of the same design and specification to replace it. It's just unrealistic.

It's not unrealistic at all. Making the same spaceframe rather than 20 different spaceframes is more logical and efficient, especially when your fleet is down and you need to rebuild it very quickly.

Look it's the same reason they reused Discovery era shuttles (and Discovery era starships in the Trek Short), laziness and/or cost cutting.

Yes, I know this. And I'm not being an apologist for their budget and time constraints. Nor am I an Eaves fanboy, because I'm no fan of his work either. But I don't think it has anything to do with being 'lazy.'
 
Chabon's (selfish) disinterest of ship porn.

Okay, so, first off, let's get one thing straight here:

Chabon is not selfish for having particular artistic interests. No one work of art is for everyone.

Or, rather, Chabon is only as selfish as he ought to be. Because, you see:

Art is not a democracy. In the words of Nicholas Meyer, writing and director of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, and co-writer of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home: "Art is a dictatorship."

An artist's obligation is to tell the story she feels compelled to tell, to the best of her ability to tell it. That's it.

It is not an artist's job to tell the story the audience thinks it wants to see, because: 1) no artist will be able to tell that story as well as the story she actually wants to tell, and 2) the audience rarely actually knows what it wants to see anyway.

To the extent that you are upset at Chabon for not being interested in starship porn, you are engaging with the art incorrectly. That does not mean that there are no legitimate criticisms of PIC. PIC is a flawed work of art -- as all works of art are flawed -- and there are legit critiques to be made. But assessing a work of art requires that we separate our subjective tastes from objective criteria of quality, and an inability to separate the two is a sign you are not consuming the art correctly.

To be clear: Being upset that PIC does not give you starship porn is like walking into The Shining and being upset that it's not as funny as Ghostbusters, or as family-friendly as Hocus Pocus, or as heartwarming as A Christmas Carol. The artist(s) created a particular type of art, that's doing a particular thing, and it is not reasonable to be upset at the art for not doing something else. It's not reasonable to be upset that a horror movie isn't telling great jokes; it's not reasonable to be upset that a character study doesn't focus on cool starships.

Delusional.

How do you expect people to react to you when you use that kind of vitriol against a fellow poster for the crime of thinking there's nothing particularly unrealistic about an incredibly minor aspect of a TV show?

Well when you say that Starfleet having 200 ships of the same class is realistic, then delusional is the only thing you can be. I'm not sure if anyone's told you this, but real life planes, cars, boats, ships... don't just come in 1 shape and size.

On the other hand, it's not unrealistic to see the Air Force send a squad of identical or nearly identical F-16s or F/A-18s on a mission. Given that the Inquiry class is supposed to be Starfleet's newest, and given that they were up against the clock to get them to Coppelius before the Tal Shiar fleet arrived, I could easily imagine the Inquiry is the fastest class and that Starfleet decided to send a crap-ton to protect the Coppelians from genocide.

And, yes, if the fleet had featured a mix of ships, I could imagine realistic scenarios for that, too!

Because, you see, this is a work of fiction, and the diversity or homogeneity of starship classes seen for a couple of shots in a scene that lasts a couple of minutes, is really not that important, and plausible scenarios can be imagined to justify either choice.

Eaves is a TOS fan from way back; he knows his shit. I'm 100% sure that if it were up to his tastes alone, he'd probably design something more Matt Jeffries-looking. But it's not -- he's hired to deliver the particular aesthetic the producers want.

Really,[/quote]


Really.

because none of his ships since long before Discovery or Picard resemble Matt Jeffries' designs.

Okay, so, first off, let's unpack that incredibly broad, sweeping statement that is shockingly reductive of the entire career of a guy who's been working on Star Trek off and on since Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. Since you're keen on examining the relationship of his pre-DIS work to the Jeffries lineage, let's look at Eaves's Starfleet designs (excluding his work on support craft like the Type 11 shuttlecraft, scout ships like the INS scout or the Argo, or the Sovereign-class captain's yacht).

His first Starfleet design was the Enterprise-B modification to the Excelsior class, modifications necessitated by the script featuring part of the hull being ripped away from the ship and by the production crew's need to avoid actually cutting into the original Excelsior model:



Seems pretty faithful to the TOS-TMP-TSFS design lineage as it existed up to that point. The modications are relatively minimal and they mostly just give it more of a sense of balance to the engineering hull. The modifications made to the back of the saucer help give it a sense of flow.

His next Starfleet starship was the Sovereign-class USS Enterprise-E:





Now, I'm sorry, but this is just an objectively good design. And it seems to me that it flows nicely out of the Starfleet lineage of aesthetics -- it combines the round features of the Galaxy with some of the harsher lines of the Defiant. Both it and the Intrepid-class Voyager by Sternbach seem like organic outgrowths of where Starfleet has been, and they both seem to reflect the more combat-oriented roles new starships were made to reflect both in-universe and out-universe.

After that, Eaves designed the Federation holoship from INS:



It's a boxy, ugly thing, but I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be. It's a radical departure from the Starfleet lineage, but its evil mission is a radical departure from Starfleet principles, so that's weirdly appropriate.

His next Starfleet designs were from ENT: the Emmette type from the end of the ENT opening credits, the NX-Alpha, NX-Beta, the UESF Intrepid type, the UESF "Warp Delta" (Gange class), and the Sarajevo type.








Now, all of those ships look to me like designs that could plausibly have been part of a lineage that eventually produced the TOS Constitution. The only exception is the Sarajevo type, which was a transport that brought the inventor of the transporter to the NX-01 in "Daedalus;" it doesn't really fit in with the Starfleet lineage. But, it also could have been a non-Starfleet ship, or a non-Earth design purchased by United Earth as a transport -- the episode was unclear.

Finally, when he worked on ST09, Eaves and Alex Jaeger designed the S.S. Kobayashi Maru:



Per Memory Alpha, "They based the design on Roger Sorensen's blueprints from 1983 of the prime universe class 3 neutronic fuel carrier Kobayashi Maru and its image on the cover of the novel The Kobayashi Maru, which in turn, was a depiction of a Tritium-class starship (β), originally designed by Rick Sternbach for the Spaceflight Chronology."

Now, to me, all of these ships look like they fight within, or are plausible precursors to, the design lineage of the TOS Constitution class.

Specifically, I would say that, pre-DIS, Star Trek as a franchise had four distinct Starfleet aesthetics that were supposed to flow into one-another (to variable degrees of plausibility):

- The ENT aesthetic (e.g., NX-01)
- The ST09 Kelvin-era aesthetic (e.g., USS Kelvin)
- The TOS aesthetic (e.g., the TOS Enterprise)
- The TOS Movie aesthetic (e.g., Constitution refit, Miranda, Excelsior, Constellation)
- The TNG/Probert/Sternbach aesthetic (e.g, Galaxy, Ambassador, Nebula, Olympic)
- The First Contact/Eaves/Sternbach/Jaeger aesthetic (Defiant, Intrepid/Voyager, Sovereign, Akira, Steamrunner, Saber, Nova)

The ENT asethetic is supposed to look boxier, more primitive than TOS, and uses darker colors to evoke what I think of as a pseudo-steampunk shorthand for "less sophisticated than." The Kelvin aesthetic feels to me like it could plausibly flow from the ENT aesthetic, but it doesn't feel to me like it flows into the TOS aesthetic. The TOS Movie aesthetic, with its drastic jump from pulp futurism to Space Art Deco, really doesn't feel like it flows naturally out of the TOS aesthetic; in publication order, it was the first implausible aesthetic shift IMO. The TNG aesthetic, with its emphasis on smooth, round lines, feels like a reasonable evolution out of the TOS Movie aesthetic after 80 years, and reflects the show's less conflict-oriented emphasis. The FC aesthetic, with the sharper lines and harsher angles of Eaves and Jeager, represents an era of ST where the show was more action-oriented and conflict-oriented. Voyager, to me, feels like an in-between of the TNG and FC eras, and the Defiant feels to me like it's the codifier of the harsher angles look.

Now, sure, the DIS era ships complicate that particular lineage flow. But that lineage flow? It already had a huge, implausible-feeling jump in the shift from pulp futurism to Art Deco, and the addition of the Kelvin to the 2230s made the flow from the ENT era to the TOS era feel more complicated than a simple progression already.

As I said, personally, I would have preferred if the Eaves/DIS aesthetic had been more TOS-like. To me, his DIS ships feel like they'd fit better in the FC era. But that's not really a continuity error, and they don't feel like they couldn't flow into the TOS aesthetic, either.
 
Part 2, because the BBS doesn't let you include more than 20 images in one post...

Sci said:
They [Eave's DIS ships]'re just not a design aesthetic you subjectively prefer.

They have no common design language. Each Discovery Starfleet ship feels like it was made by a different designer. They're a mess.












I have no idea what you're talking about. They all look to me like they share a common lineage and come from a common designer. I knew the Shenzhou was a John Eaves design before I ever looked it up to verify.

I flat-out reject the assertion that TNG did better starship porn than DIS. Setting aside my subjective preference that TOS-era ships have a retro-futurist aesthetic, those ships are gorgeous. Eaves clearly made an effort to give them unique profiles that stand out from a distance; they have a sense of weight and size, and they all look like they have distinct mission profiles. DIS does damn good starship porn.


But you hardly see any of them.

The Shenzhou is prominently featured in the first two episodes. The other ships are seen regularly throughout the rest of the first two seasons, and are also prominently featured in the Mirror Universe episodes.

I will grant that we don't get as many close-ups of all of them them as we got of other Starfleet ships on TNG, but we certainly get enough closeups of enough of them that I think DIS is competitive, especially since DIS introduced that myriad of designs within its first three episodes. TNG didn't get around to introducing the Constellation until towards the end of S1.

95% of Discovery's first season takes place on the ship. And even when there are Starfleet ships on screen, they hardly stand out or make any impact whatsoever because of the poor cinematography.

It's not poor cinematography. It's good cinematography that's creating the mis-en-scene it wants to create; you just wish it were being employed to create a different mis-en-scene. Your subjective desire that a work of art have a different artistic goal than it actually has does not make it "poor."

Same with Picard, ignore the ugly geometry on the Copy Paste Class, the actual angles and ultra wide field of view used in the episode barely left any impression.

I thought the shots of the fleet were beautifully well composed, and that they conveyed the appropriate feeling of frenzy, of chaos, of being lost in a storm, that the scene was intended to convey.

Picard only honours the legacy of Star Trek that Chabon likes.

By my count, PIC follows up on or contains affectionate references to literally every single previous Star Trek series, so I have no idea what the hell you mean by that.

You're in a thread called "Starship design in Star Trek Picard" and you're wondering why people in here take it so seriously?

Shockingly, some of us expected to have fun talking about starships, not to be dealing with people who decide a minor detail from a two-minute scene is an indictment of character flaws of the showrunner and of a significant percentage of the audience.

No one is saying Picard is ruined because of that one scene or that one scene ruined their childhood.

You say that after calling Chabon "selfish" and other posters "delusional," and generally after pouring a great deal of vitriol into this one minor thing, so you'll forgive me if I think your behavior contradicts this statement.

Really? I don't remember anything from the pilot. I remember the season 2 finale, but only because of how ludicrous and juvenile the pew pew action was.

The pilot had a lot more ship combat than the S2 premiere, so I'm curious why you'd say that. Can you summarize the plots of either one from memory?
 
Now, sure, the DIS era ships complicate that particular lineage flow. But that lineage flow? It already had a huge, implausible-feeling jump in the shift from pulp futurism to Art Deco, and the addition of the Kelvin to the 2230s made the flow from the ENT era to the TOS era feel more complicated than a simple progression already.

As I said, personally, I would have preferred if the Eaves/DIS aesthetic had been more TOS-like. To me, his DIS ships feel like they'd fit better in the FC era. But that's not really a continuity error, and they don't feel like they couldn't flow into the TOS aesthetic, either.
It should be noted that virtually all the ships seen in Discovery appear newer than the Enterprise. While not quite matched with Star Trek: The Motion Picture's style (which would develop during the timeframe of Star Trek), the nacelles of the Crossfield-Class and her contemporaries show a clear line of advancement between the domes of the Starship-Class and the refit Consitution-Class.
 
Last edited:
It should be noted that virtually all the ships seen in Discovery appear newer than the Enterprise. While not quite matched with Star Trek: The Motion Picture's style (which would develop during the timeframe of Star Trek), the nacelles of the Crossfield-Class and her contemporaries show a clear line of advancement between the domes of the Starship-Class and the refit Consitution-Class.

You also have to consider that the Enterprise is 10 years old by the time DSC starts, and it isn’t the lead ship of the class, so the class itself is older than that, though probably not by much.

We don’t know how old the DSC ship classes are. Other than the Shenzhou which is said to be an old ship when the series starts, it’s also still using phase cannons.

The Discovery is also said to look brand new, though that doesn’t necessarily mean the design itself is new, it could just be freshly built making it look new. Could be an old design modified to work with the spore drive. We do t really know, the show never really says.
 
Last edited:
Well, when they lost the specificly built rescue fleet, you take what you can, and you still help! doens't matter if its 1 ship, you saved possibly a few more thousand lives.. them giving up was a political decision.. and was absolute Crap decision.. and not in the morals of the Federation... was why Picard resigned.. as the saying goes.. I didn't leave the Federation, the Federation left me..

As for Eaves, I like his work, but I belive in more cooks in the kitchen, Artists ( Me included) have a particular style to there art, and is hard to deviate.
Question.. is there any Women Concept Artists?? Men tend to be more liniear, and hard lines, while women are more flowing and curves.. ( In general) just a thought :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sci
Picard only honours the legacy of Star Trek that Chabon likes. And that doesn't include ship porn because he himself isn't interested in it.

My advice to you is........become a writer, win a Pulitzer, pitch yours ideas to CBS/Viacom make your ship porn show! Also Picard isn't a show about ships.......it's about........Picard! Good luck with your show.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top