Any point in secret identities?
- Thread starter Replica Picard
- Start date
Huh. Looks like, as of the latest issue of GREEN LANTERN, we can add one more character to the list of ones who don't do secret identities anymore.
Green Lantern always was playing with that. I mean, Guy Gardner and John Stewart just didn't bother with it at all, and the movie pointed out how that tiny Domino Mask wasn't going to fool anyone Hal actually knew if he ran into them.
The Amazing Spider-Man films Gwen Stacy is a fine example of a love interest underestimating the dangers and getting involved and showing the positives and negatives that can arise.
Since both knowing and not knowing can involve dangers and with knowing the danger is voluntarily, if uninformed, taken on, it's not necessarily more ethical to not reveal but it's at least a tough call.
The problem with using fictional stories as "examples" for anything is that the stories are designed to have the outcome the writer prefers, no matter how much the deck has to be stacked to force that outcome. It turns out badly if the writer wants it to turn out badly, and well if the writer wants it to turn out well.
Indeed, Gwen proves that, because in the comics she didn't know Peter's identity and in the movies she did, and she was given the same fate both times -- in a rather contrived manner in the latter case, I felt.
Frankly I think it does the movies' Gwen a grave disservice to dismiss her merely as "a love interest underestimating the dangers." She wasn't just a "love interest," she was a protagonist and partner in her own right. And she wasn't ignorant of the danger; she knew the risks but was courageous enough to face them anyway, the same as Spider-Man was.
Female love interests, particularly ones in Superhero stories, are given the shaft by a lot of fans for the contrived drama situations they end up playing into and how they come off as the unsympathetic shrew types almost entirely as a result of them not knowing the Hero's secret life.
Example, Karen from the recent Daredevil show. She was getting ripped into from Day One for being a love interest who didn't know what was going on and thus was annoying for creating unnecessary drama.
ASM Gwen was a perfect example of how NOT to do that. A love interest who was so much more than that.
I mean heck, despite my feelings towards the DCEU one thing I loved was how they had Lois know who Clark was all along and have them work together as confidants the whole time.
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Of course the outcome reflects the preference of the writer(s), I thought it was still a good specific example of what was mentioned instance of, that a civilian knowing and choosing to get involve can expose them to a lot of danger. Further, to me, the idea that it's forced for a civilian to die from getting into the action, the alternate idea that a civilian can often participate in and survive, succeed in battles the hero is involved in is more unbelievable and/or takes away from the hero being unique and the missions dangerous, certainly of the powers being necessary.
She was a civilian supporting character, prominent but I don't think co-lead. I guess it's subjective what is underestimating danger vs. knowing it and braving it but I think a lot of viewers did perceive her to be pretty reckless and Peter Parker thought so as well (though the message of the movie did seem to be that risks were worthwhile even when they led to losses). It makes sense that many heroes wouldn't want to others to take big risks.
That was one of the actually few good things in the movie.. i laughed loud at that scene and was happy they went that way.
It's become a staple of superhero comics with flimsy civilian disguises, Superman is often ridiculed for this (there is a hilarious scene in Ready Player One where they make fun i´of Clark Kent/Superman).
In universe however i completely understand the reasoning behind it - much as no one wants to be a Superhero 24/7 they need time to just be themselves. However being a good Superhero means you become a star celebrity not able to simply walk the streets so they try to hide to have some semblance of a private life not unlike entertainment stars, who are constantly harrassed by paparazzi and fans.
The more important part however is the protection of others in their circle of family and friends who are not indestructible or can just fly away. It is the main reason for many superheroes to wear masks or otherwise be unrecognizeable for fear of loved ones coming into the crosshairs of Supervillains.
If you can't hurt Superman and have been beaten consistently by him why not try his squishy love interest Lois Lane, his pal Jimmy Olsen or his mother? This would hurt much more than a punch to the face.
This is why i loved the comic book event Civil War (and the movie of course) because it exactly tackled this issue and added the whole vigilante vs sanctioned government operative angle.
Except that stories are about people getting in danger. No matter what the circumstance is, the characters will still be placed in danger. People like to complain about the families on the Enterprise-D in Star Trek: TNG on the premise that space is too dangerous for families -- but look at any Earthbound action show and you'll see families put in just as constant danger. Eureka had the title town almost blown up by experiments gone wrong every week, but families still lived there. Sunnydale High in Buffy or Hamilton Hill High in Batman Beyond were subject to constant monster or supervillain attacks, yet parents still sent their kids there. So no matter how the story defines the situation, the characters will still be placed in danger, because that's how stories work.
Heck, the ur-example is Superman keeping his identity secret from Lois and Jimmy to "protect" them -- yet Lois and Jimmy still got placed in constant danger anyway, because Superman needed someone to rescue. Story logic is not actual logic. You can't use it to prove anything, because the facts and situations will always bend to serve the narrative goal rather than the other way around.
I don't know how we ended up talking about civilians participating in the action. The original subject was just whether keeping a superhero identity secret from their loved ones would actually do anything to protect them. Which, again, it usually doesn't. They just end up getting put in danger anyway, because that's their role in the story, so it makes the heroes' constant refusal to bring them into the loop and give them the chance to take precautions seem that much more hypocritical and selfish. It doesn't actually protect the loved ones, it just protects the hero from having their identity exposed if the loved ones are tortured for it.
Yeah, and at least having the loved ones and friends KNOW and continue to be around the hero shows that they know the risks and they're equally as responsible for their continuing involvement in things. The hero comes off as less of a jerk now.
And having friends like them in the know means they'd be able to try and actively help him, which would make their eventual endangerment less contrived. They get involved in stuff because they're doing their jobs or helping him with a case. Which adds to drama and conflict in new directions: What does the hero do when the wants them out of danger but they're fine with the danger if it means they're helping others anyways.
It also means the typical "Damsels" would be something BEYOND Damsels.
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It did ok. I think Daredevil, the Incredibles and Batman 66 did it better, IMO.
Watching The Flash last night I got thinking about this thread. One thing that has bugged me lately is how quick they have been start telling people who they are. Telling people like Joe and Iris is one thing, but I does seem to be going a bit to far when they telling people like Kamilla, Alegra, and Chester who they barely even know at that point. There really was no reason for any of them to know at that point, they weren't part of the team, and really weren't involved enough with the team's heroics to need to know at the point where they told them. Chester and Allegra weren't as bad since they were metas involved in the plot, but there really is no need for Kamilla to know when her only connection is being Cisco's girlfriend, and they haven't been going out that long yet.
When you start telling people, it really should just be limited to those closest to you, not every random person who you've know for a couple of days.
When you start telling people, it really should just be limited to those closest to you, not every random person who you've know for a couple of days.
Alan Kistler just published an interesting article about the history of the secret identity trope, why it can be problematical, and why it's increasingly falling by the wayside:
https://www.polygon.com/comics/2020...pider-man-civil-war-superhero-secret-identity
https://www.polygon.com/comics/2020...pider-man-civil-war-superhero-secret-identity
Even the big companies began deconstructing or toying with the notion of the Secret Identity as far back as the 80s with the Post-Crisis Captain Atom series, IIRC.
Captain Atom bounced up time 20 years, and reconnected with his family without explaining to his children who he really was, which is how his adult daughter made out with him a little.
Ewwwwww....
Anyways, what I meant was how they used the Pre-Crisis stories and origin about him as his cover origin story so no one would know his Post-Crisis origin was due to Military Experiments with alien tech. They made up a whole fake backstory for him, he would say he had villains specific to him (highlighting the conceit of how some heroes only fight certain villains and vice versa) and it was all to insert him into the Private world Superheroes had built for themselves.
His "Secret ID" was all BS. His whole history that was fed to the public was BS. And in the end he couldn't deal with it anymore and came clean.
He was also a spy, reporting on the Justice League International to the US Government, and General Eiling.
Dude had some problems.
Dude had some problems.
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At this point, it would be more interesting if Barry went public with his superhero identity on the show. But if they did, it would bring up problems that I'm not sure the show would want to handle in any (deep) way: What about Barry's job with the CCPD? All the cases in which he was involved? And the fallout for David Singh and Joe West.
I stopped watching years ago, but this issue was already a major annoyance for me then. I remember when Cisco casually gave away Barry's secret to a random Barista he'd known for literally less than a day without even asking Barry first. Yeah, she turned out to be Hawkgirl, but he didn't know that when he told her and his only reasoning was that she was in danger so she deserved to know. Except literally everyone Barry saves is in danger and somehow they don't all deserve to know.
And especially the contrast between that and the absolutely insane plotline about how Barry refused to share his secret with his own girlfriend who was a *police officer specifically assigned to metahuman cases* because he didn't want to 'put her in danger'. Pay no attention to the fact that she was *already fighting metahumans by herself* or the fact that his previous girlfriend tore him a new one for keeping her in the dark far too long and not letting her choose for herself if she wanted to take the risk of being with him (which led to him promising never to make that mistake again, less than a year before he turned around and did the exact same thing to someone else).
The treatment of Barry's secret on that show is flat out idiotic.
Once it led to Lois's father and the military trying to hunt him down.
I don't think anyone has said it's not good for people very close to the hero to know, like Superman with his parents and, when they've become close, Lois (well except for Mark Waid and maybe Mark Millar and Grant Morrison did resent Lois knowing), or Batman with Alfred. That's a far cry from for example Jimmy is a friend of Superman, Jimmy sometimes faces dangers, so Superman has an obligation to tell him.
Then it's a good thing for Iron Man and Spider-Man and the latter's aunt that they haven't clashed with the Kingpin.
Some debate, Iron Man presented it as something that Will Happen.
With Marvel it has made superheroes into either soldiers who have been drafted into service or fugitives.