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TNG vs DS9?

TNG or DS9?

  • TNG

    Votes: 17 30.4%
  • DS9

    Votes: 39 69.6%

  • Total voters
    56
My problem with that episode, and with early TNG in general, was that they tried to make their 24th century humans look better by accentuating the negative aspects of the 20th century in hopes that their "evolved" people look better in comparison.
? By showing them? I’m guessing you’re referring to Offenhouse specifically. I don’t think he’s that “accentuated” at all. I’ve had plenty of conversations with people who are like that or worse. That’s just me, let alone people around even less savory characters. Offenhouse was also in a heightened situation and even if he wouldn’t normally be as honest about his motivations, he went there then. And I think that’s a lot of us today — we think we’re well-meaning, even to ourselves, but then we’re surprised what comes out of our mouths when we get to the realities of some of our behaviors.

And it’s not that we’re all evil, but maybe they are less so.
 
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But the Bajorans in general force the emissary role on Sisko.

Yeah, that's a hard question. I still maintain Sisko had free choice here and chose to accept that role. But yes, I'd say Sisko's situation (in terms of own initiative leading to that situation and freedom of choice) would be somewhere between that of the pope (who chose for his career in church and knew he could be elected), and the queen of England (for whom it probably would have been very hard to choose a different path, but still not impossible).

We're getting into consequentialism vs deontology territory, there. That's been explored in Trek quite a bit before, like the dilemna to infect Hugh or not: infected him was the consequentialist thing to do (if you don't care about Borg lives), not doing so the deontological thing to do. Or infecting the founders or not, for that matter

To be fair, Picard never was in a situation (as far as I know) where doing the 'deontogical' thing would have lead to unavoidable defeat (and probably extermination) as Sisko is. He "only" gives up an opportunity to destroy the Borg, who might, or might not, come back later. It would have been interesting to have seen such a setup in, say, First Contact: Picard can still prevent the assimilation of Earth, but only by doing a thing he considers deeply immoral. What does he do?

Though much of that is quite speculative, I would say. I'm not at all convinced the lack of "the Sisko" would've inevitably lead to civil war.

To be honest, I was least sure of that part of my reply myself. But, if in Kira's estimation it would happen should Kai Opaka fail in unifying her people, I have to conclude that at the very least civil war would have been a realistic possibility. But then, it even might have happened with Sisko as the Emissary.

On a tangential note: why is Picard so in favor of the Bajorans joining the Federation if they're that divided? He recommended against the admission of the Kes (from planet Kesprytt) to the Federation for that reason ...

It's also a question of numbers vs choice: do we have the right to decide the death of a million people to save 3 million? If the mliion is a strict subset of the 3 million, that's one thing, but if the overlap is incomplete... well, I'll stop here before one of us mentions trolleys.

My answer to that would be that this is one of those situations where not choosing between A and B is a choice too (because then by default A will happen), so that the question of 'right to decide' is probably moot - you're forced to decide, even if only by inaction. But this has long since been debated exhaustively by people far more grounded in ethics and philosophy than I am.
 
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I’m surprised he wasn’t immediately recast as the Kosst Amojan by the Bajorans the moment he found out their gods are aliens. “Nay brothers and sisters, the godless Federation outsider shall not blaspheme the Temple and the Prophets be telling us they’re Little Green Men from Alpha Centauri! Cast out the Federation deceivers! And may Gods Bless the United Peoples of the Bajora”
 
The writing on DSN tended to be quite a bit better. Compare two similar situations:
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Sisko comes right to the central issue at hand and take control of the situation. Meanwhile Picard issues yet another More In Sadness Than In Anger Moral Lecture #420568678. Yawn.
 
I’m surprised he wasn’t immediately recast as the Kosst Amojan by the Bajorans the moment he found out their gods are aliens. “Nay brothers and sisters, the godless Federation outsider shall not blaspheme the Temple and the Prophets be telling us they’re Little Green Men from Alpha Centauri! Cast out the Federation deceivers! And may Gods Bless the United Peoples of the Bajora”
I'm not. They had just endured occupation by Cardassians. They needed hope.
 
The writing on DSN tended to be quite a bit better. Compare two similar situations:
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Sisko comes right to the central issue at hand and take control of the situation. Meanwhile Picard issues yet another More In Sadness Than In Anger Moral Lecture #420568678. Yawn.
Everyone in the DS9 scene was hammy af. You knew exactly what they were doing, and worse, where it was going. All Sisko needed was a cigar. The tension was palpable in the TNG one. Worf just killed a guy a Picard seemed ready to discharge him if he misspoke. I generally find DS9 cheesy and TNG understated. Guess where I yawned more.
 
I love both, but I voted for DS9.
It's grittier, and the characters have flaws, and those flaws come out from time to time.
Sisko himself is an incredible character in that he started the show in a job that he didn't want, was actively grieving the loss of his wife (he actually cried in the first episode), and was raising his son alone. He made mistakes, he violated his own personal beliefs, and committed a serious crime to get the Romulans involved in the war.
Secondary characters had nice development. Hell, Nog started out as a bit character, and had more development over the course of 7 years than probably any character in the Star Trek universe.

In an ideal world, I would be Jean-Luc Picard
In the real world, I could only hope to be Benjamin Sisko
 
To be fair, Picard never was in a situation (as far as I know) where doing the 'deontogical' thing would have lead to unavoidable defeat (and probably extermination) as Sisko is. He "only" gives up an opportunity to destroy the Borg, who might, or might not, come back later.

I'll highly disagree, here. The Borg are an extremely big threat at that point in time (VOY hadn't happened to them, yet), and they show signs of coming back (the mere fact that Hugh & co are there!).
On the other hand, Sisko doesn't know about the Dominion yet. He doesn't even know about the wormhole when he meets Opaka!
The worst he faces is potential failure of his mission to "bring Bajor" into the fold", which at that point he has no particular attachment to, he's just exercising his duty.

My answer to that would be that this is one of those situations where not choosing between A and B is a choice too (because then by default A will happen), so that the question of 'right to decide' is probably moot - you're forced to decide, even if only by inaction. But this has long since been debated exhaustively by people far more grounded in ethics and philosophy than I am.

Yes, it has been, but it's not really a settled question, which is why I alluded to the Trolley Problem earlier.
If you're unfamiliar with it, this is the Trolley Problem:
There is an automated trolley moving on a track. For some reason, 5 people are tied up on the track, the trolley will kill them if nobody acts. You are there to save them! You're too far to run to them and untie them, but you're close to a railroad switch: you can divert the trolley on another track... but that track has 1 person tied to it.
Do you flip the switch?

Most people, when faced with that hypothetical, pick the utilitarian solution: flip the switch.
But the same problem in another context elicits a very different response: this time, you are a surgeon. A brilliant surgeon who never fails. You have 6 patients: one is in there for a minor issue but is a model of health, the other five badly need organ transplants. All different organs. Do you kill the healthy patient to save the other 5?
Pretty much everyone picks the deontological answer here: "no".

Yet, it's 5 lives lost through inaction or one you personally kill in both scenarii.

There are hypotheses as to why the answers differ. Mine is that in the first scenario, we empathise most with the person near the switch, whereas in the second, we place ourselves in the shoes of the healthy patient (even though the prompt is that we're the surgeon). Why? Because most of us aren't surgeons, so our experience lies on the patient side, and wouldn't it be terrifying if your next doctor's appointment could end up with you being killed to save 5 other people? Simply because there are more of them?
"Being near a switch", though, is a situation we could find ourselves into, so in that case, the gut reaction isn't there.

Plus, we're used to medicine favouring deontology over utilitarianism.
Justice, too: kill someone through action, that's homicide. Don't save someone: that's a crime in some countries, but not others, and it's considered lesser than homicide.

Inaction is a decision, sure, but not acting is not equivalent to acting.

But anyway, this is what I said I wouldn't do.
 
Once a year or less is "quite a bit", huh? Okay... :rolleyes:
Oh I dunno. In how many plays was “to be or not to be” used? Plus he said many variations on the same. I’d be curious what they are but I’m not going to expect him to do a Memory Alpha article on it. It didn’t work for him.

Frankly, I don’t get the 47 thing throughout modern Trek. Instantly breaks the fourth wall, and for what exactly?
Is it wrong that I enjoyed both about equally?
Nope! :bolian::borg::vulcan::klingon::cardie::rommie:
 
Oh I dunno. In how many plays was “to be or not to be” used? Plus he said many variations on the same. I’d be curious what they are but I’m not going to expect him to do a Memory Alpha article on it. It didn’t work for him.
How many times has "I love you" been said? Probably quite regularly.
 
She has her reasons, but at times, it just makes the character annoying. Imagine working alongside someone like that, prone to either snapping at you or boasting about how tough she's had it. Someone you need to walk on eggshells around. It's exhausting.
Ok, Done,
 
Nah. Doesn't quite work. Pick a better example. I'm legit interested in seeing if one works.
Works perfectly well, given what that the subject is the overuse of the threat of being thrown out the airlock. It counts as scènes à faire, not unlike "I love you" for anything touching on romance and relationships.
 
My problem with that episode, and with early TNG in general, was that they tried to make their 24th century humans look better by accentuating the negative aspects of the 20th century in hopes that their "evolved" people look better in comparison.
Considering that the entirety of their viewing audience consisted of poor dumb clods from the 20th Century... Not a great plan.
 
Considering that the entirety of their viewing audience consisted of poor dumb clods from the 20th Century... Not a great plan.
I was watching in the 20th Century and we sucked.

Works perfectly well, given what that the subject is the overuse of the threat of being thrown out the airlock. It counts as scènes à faire, not unlike "I love you" for anything touching on romance and relationships.
Nah. You're more or less saying that haying Hello is repetitive and that's not what he was saying.
 
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