Who’s in command of the NX-01 in 2161? (TATV topic)

[FederationHistorian]

Doesn't mean they would not have been. NX-01 for her part was no doubt the biggest and baddest ship of the early to mid 2150s, although by the putative time of the Romulan War this might have changed drastically.

That may be possible. Since there was a USS Dauntless NX-01-A/NX-01A, featured in the VOY episode “Hope and Fear.” And the VOY crew never questioned the registry belonging to another Earth ship. So maybe – for the duration of the Romulan War – the Dauntless became the flagship of Starfleet during that time, and took the registration on NX-01 for itself. Seems like something the MACOs would name their ship. And that would mean they outfitted that ship with MACO weapons instead of Starfleet weapons - which would help explain the various phaser streams seen during TOS, since they were merged with Starfleet after the war.

Plus, we'd have to also consider that the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites had their flagship for the war too.

As for the USS designation, the USS can be seen on a screen for both Enterprise and Columbia during the episode “Divergence.” Which means its considered a United States Ship at this point in time. As is the USS Spartan from the Star Trek: The Beginning script.

That none of the crew got known promotions for that may then be explained by the missions having been so top secret that Starfleet wouldn't acknowledge to them within the lifetimes of our heroes at all - or by Starfleet having decided that none of Archer's crew were fit to be aboard the ship for the duration of the cloak sorties, and were better employed on USO tours.

In which case, those secret missions would have been done by the MACOs, or another branch of the United Earth military. And also means they handled atomic weaponry as well.

Which would mean Archer and his crew would be doing other things with their time while the war was happening.

Like vacationing on Risa.

 

[Timo]

That may be possible. Since there was a USS Dauntless NX-01-A/NX-01A, featured in the VOY episode “Hope and Fear.” And the VOY crew never questioned the registry belonging to another Earth ship. So maybe – for the duration of the Romulan War – the Dauntless became the flagship of Starfleet during that time, and took the registration on NX-01 for itself.

Or then there's nothing to be read to two ships from two different organizations having roughly similar registries.

As far as we know, Enterprise (NX-01) was never in UFP Starfleet registry, while Dauntless was trying to make the impression that she was. In UFP Starfleet registry, NX appears to refer to experimental designs and/or prototypes for production models, while obviously Archer's ship was not the first-ever prototype in UESF service although she could in theory have been the first experiment of note. It's a chore to try and create connections between the UE and UFP systems, then - and Arturis wasn't trying to make the heroes struggle mentally.

Possibly the ship that got UFP Starfleet's registry NX-01, meaning the prototype for the Dauntless class, entered service in 2161 or was adopted for this service from some other at that time. But there's unlikely to be any "handing over" element to the adoption of this registry.

Seems like something the MACOs would name their ship.

If they had any. But as jarheads say, My Ass Rides In Navy Equipment, Sir...

Then again, Vulcans also name their ships Intrepid, despite not being particularly prone to trepidation or willing to admit to trying to do the opposite.

And that would mean they outfitted that ship with MACO weapons instead of Starfleet weapons - which would help explain the various phaser streams seen during TOS, since they were merged with Starfleet after the war.

I gather UFP Starfleet would be merging so many elements already, from all the member cultures, that we don't really need "MACO phaser beams" added to that mix...

Plus, we'd have to also consider that the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites had their flagship for the war too.

Assuming that they even participated. And that they didn't do so under a truly unified command.

As for the USS designation, the USS can be seen on a screen for both Enterprise and Columbia during the episode “Divergence.” Which means its considered a United States Ship at this point in time. As is the USS Spartan from the Star Trek: The Beginning script.

Or then UE Starfleet Starship, just like Kirk's is a UFP Starfleet Starship. In that respect, there's no need for a major paradigm shift in 2161. But it would be particularly odd for Archer's ship to suddenly fly a national flag when nations supposedly were outdated four years prior with great pomp and decor.

In which case, those secret missions would have been done by the MACOs, or another branch of the United Earth military. And also means they handled atomic weaponry as well.

An intriguing idea as such. But whether the Military ever fought the Romulans is still undecided - and the less we have those boots-on-ground folks involved, the more likely it is for no Earthling to come face to face with a Romulan. Although if Edison's organization fought in ships exclusively, the faceless enemy still remains viable.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FederationHistorian]

Or then there's nothing to be read to two ships from two different organizations having roughly similar registries.

As far as we know, Enterprise (NX-01) was never in UFP Starfleet registry, while Dauntless was trying to make the impression that she was. In UFP Starfleet registry, NX appears to refer to experimental designs and/or prototypes for production models, while obviously Archer's ship was not the first-ever prototype in UESF service although she could in theory have been the first experiment of note. It's a chore to try and create connections between the UE and UFP systems, then - and Arturis wasn't trying to make the heroes struggle mentally.

Possibly the ship that got UFP Starfleet's registry NX-01, meaning the prototype for the Dauntless class, entered service in 2161 or was adopted for this service from some other at that time. But there's unlikely to be any "handing over" element to the adoption of this registry.

Its also possible that Archer requested that they rename the ship for the duration of the Romulan War, since Enterprise is not a warship; it's a ship of exploration. Therefore, he’s technically still in command of Enterprise, his crew and its mission, while the actual ship is being used by the MACO for military purposes.

I gather UFP Starfleet would be merging so many elements already, from all the member cultures, that we don't really need "MACO phaser beams" added to that mix...

Fair point. But MACOs were already using blue phaser streams and pulses, while Starfleet used a red phaser stream, pulses and photonic torpeodes. The contractors for their weapons obviously aren’t the same.

Plus, the Xindi mission was a Starfleet mission played by Starfleet’s rules. The Romulan mission would likely be a MACO mission, meaning it will be played by MACO rules.

Assuming that they even participated. And that they didn't do so under a truly unified command.

It does suggest that they do, at least for the Battle of Charon.

That history though also ignores the end date of WW3 in 2053, gets the year of first contact with the Vulcans wrong, ignores the Earth-Kzin wars and the colonization of Mars, doesn’t state the year Starfleet was established (which I’d imagine would be important under a historical timeline of events related to the history of Starfleet!) and most importantly, also suggests the Federation-Klingon cold war will last 70 years. Don’t know how one would know that for fact in 2268 onboard the USS Defiant.

Or then UE Starfleet Starship, just like Kirk's is a UFP Starfleet Starship. In that respect, there's no need for a major paradigm shift in 2161. But it would be particularly odd for Archer's ship to suddenly fly a national flag when nations supposedly were outdated four years prior with great pomp and decor.

TBF, we don’t know what United Earth politics were like at the time. Maybe there was some early push back shortly after the formation of the UE, that got quickly quashed afterward due to the Romulan conflict, and especially after the Romulan attack on Earth.

An intriguing idea as such. But whether the Military ever fought the Romulans is still undecided - and the less we have those boots-on-ground folks involved, the more likely it is for no Earthling to come face to face with a Romulan. Although if Edison's organization fought in ships exclusively, the faceless enemy still remains viable.

When I account for all the supposed technology that Romulans either has or was planned to have (telecapture devices, holographic drone ships/holo technology, reversed engineered warp to have warp drive, cloaked mines, cloaked BoPs) and the various combinations they could be, I don’t know how many, or even if Romulans saw any combat. It’s entirely possible that MACOs boarded Romulan ships, only to find them either empty, or saw holographic projections of either masked Romulans or Remans, while the Romulans sat at home the whole war.

Just like it’s entirely possible that Romulan Empire used the holographic ships to emulate Vulcan cruisers to sent in Romulans that resembled Vulcans to internally spy, steal state secrets on both Vulcan and Earth, or wreak havoc with subroutines that either sabotage projects or cause disruptions like blackouts or disabled defence grids.

I just don't think the Romulans would have fought out in the open during the war. Deception and covert ops seems like a more Romulan strategy to me.

 

[Timo]

Its also possible that Archer requested that they rename the ship for the duration of the Romulan War, since Enterprise is not a warship; it's a ship of exploration. Therefore, he’s technically still in command of Enterprise, his crew and its mission, while the actual ship is being used by the MACO for military purposes.

Archer didn't seem to have any problem with Enterprise being Earth's one instrument of vengeance during the third season, though. And Starfleet had no problem sending Archer to command this mission of vengeance, even though Archer had no combat merits we'd know of and could have been replaced at the drop of a hat, especially if his bosses felt he might not be happy with having a MACO contingent aboard.

Fair point. But MACOs were already using blue phaser streams and pulses, while Starfleet used a red phaser stream, pulses and photonic torpeodes. The contractors for their weapons obviously aren’t the same.

We don't even know if the MACO used phasers at all. Their weapons are never given a name, and they don't demonstrate the stun setting that Tucker thinks is worth specifically pointing out to Archer when he introduces the all-new phaser personal armament in "Broken Bow". For all we know, as of the third season of ENT, the Military still conservatively relies on the older "plasma gun" technology of which the EM-33 pistol supposedly was an example.

Plus, the Xindi mission was a Starfleet mission played by Starfleet’s rules. The Romulan mission would likely be a MACO mission, meaning it will be played by MACO rules.

If the Xindi mission was a Starfleet one, I see no reason for the Romulan one not to be. Starfleet is the only known Earth force that fights space battles. It did so against the Xindi, and against the Klingons. Indeed, Starfleet supposedly did nothing but fight until it got its first-ever exploration asset, the NX-01...

It does suggest that they do, at least for the Battle of Charon.

As part of an alliance, yes. Would an alliance call for separate flagships on a species basis?

That history though also ignores the end date of WW3 in 2053, gets the year of first contact with the Vulcans wrong, ignores the Earth-Kzin wars and the colonization of Mars, doesn’t state the year Starfleet was established (which I’d imagine would be important under a historical timeline of events related to the history of Starfleet!)

...One wonders if this particular Defiant didn't come from a slightly parallel timeline, then.

and most importantly, also suggests the Federation-Klingon cold war will last 70 years. Don’t know how one would know that for fact in 2268 onboard the USS Defiant.

That's a good one! (Also, who'd care to learn when this Jim Kirk sap was born when he supposedly was a nobody when the Defiant hopped universes? Why not list the birth dates of people actually considered great at the time, such as Tracey or Pike?)

I just don't think the Romulans would have fought out in the open during the war. Deception and covert ops seems like a more Romulan strategy to me.

Agreed. One very much wonders, then, why the ship in "Balance of Terror" was crewed... Wouldn't this be the one mission where the presence of a crew would be a completely unacceptable risk?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FederationHistorian]

Archer didn't seem to have any problem with Enterprise being Earth's one instrument of vengeance during the third season, though. And Starfleet had no problem sending Archer to command this mission of vengeance, even though Archer had no combat merits we'd know of and could have been replaced at the drop of a hat, especially if his bosses felt he might not be happy with having a MACO contingent aboard.

That Archer still had something to prove though, both with his father’s warp engine, and with humanity’s standing with the Vulcans. By the time of the Romulan War starting though:

- His father’s engine is being mass produced to other NX ships (starting with Columbia) and its is known it can reach Warp 5.2
- The Vulcans have gone through a reformation and stopped being dicks to humans and allowing them to explore without their supervision
- Archer has likely grown attached to his crew more than he is attached to the ship itself
- Archer may not have had a desire to see another mission like the Xindi again

From Starfleet’s perspective for choosing Archer for the Xindi mission:

- T’Pol would be seen as a representative of Vulcan leading a human mission, and would likely have her methods questioned by members of the crew
- Trip would have blown up everything in sight due to his emotional state at the time
- Reed, Phlox, Mayweather, Sato, have no command experience
- Their other choice to command the NX-01, A.G Robinson, died in a climbing accident a few months before
- Erika Hernandez had no experience going on deep space missions
- Soval, prior to “Cease Fire” hadn’t fired a weapon in 50 years, and would be another representative of Vulcan leading humans, and would face the same problems as T’Pol
- I don’t know if Admiral Forrest, or any admiral for that matter had any combat experience
- MACO’s aren’t known for deep space missions either

We don't even know if the MACO used phasers at all. Their weapons are never given a name, and they don't demonstrate the stun setting that Tucker thinks is worth specifically pointing out to Archer when he introduces the all-new phaser personal armament in "Broken Bow". For all we know, as of the third season of ENT, the Military still conservatively relies on the older "plasma gun" technology of which the EM-33 pistol supposedly was an example.

The idea is that MACO weapons are more powerful than Starfleet weapons. And is to be expected, since it is a MACO’s area of expertise. They just didn’t loan any to Starfleet for "political" reasons.

If the Xindi mission was a Starfleet one, I see no reason for the Romulan one not to be. Starfleet is the only known Earth force that fights space battles.

That we know of.

It did so against the Xindi, and against the Klingons. Indeed, Starfleet supposedly did nothing but fight until it got its first-ever exploration asset, the NX-01...

Maybe the Xindi mission – and the NX-01 return as a badly damaged vessel – was a wakeup call. The Starfleet from before that mission was naïve, and dare I say, full of hubris.

As part of an alliance, yes. Would an alliance call for separate flagships on a species basis?

Based upon what was seen in the Dominion War with the Federation, Klingons and Romulans, yes they would.

...One wonders if this particular Defiant didn't come from a slightly parallel timeline, then.

That does open up the possibility that ENT is from a parallel timeline as well.

That's a good one! (Also, who'd care to learn when this Jim Kirk sap was born when he supposedly was a nobody when the Defiant hopped universes? Why not list the birth dates of people actually considered great at the time, such as Tracey or Pike?)

If its a parallel timeline, do Tracey and Pike even exist?

Agreed. One very much wonders, then, why the ship in "Balance of Terror" was crewed... Wouldn't this be the one mission where the presence of a crew would be a completely unacceptable risk?

Based upon the uniforms that the Romulans were wearing, in “Balance of Terror,” “The Enterprise Incident,” and The Undiscovered Country – which are very different from the uniforms worn in both ENT and TNG/DS9 - I think there were some significant reforms that occurred behind the scene on Romulus. That includes visual contact with other species, regardless if they are friend or foe.

 

[Timo]

From Starfleet’s perspective for choosing Archer for the Xindi mission:

- T’Pol would be seen as a representative of Vulcan leading a human mission, and would likely have her methods questioned by members of the crew
- Trip would have blown up everything in sight due to his emotional state at the time
- Reed, Phlox, Mayweather, Sato, have no command experience
- Their other choice to command the NX-01, A.G Robinson, died in a climbing accident a few months before
- Erika Hernandez had no experience going on deep space missions
- Soval, prior to “Cease Fire” hadn’t fired a weapon in 50 years, and would be another representative of Vulcan leading humans, and would face the same problems as T’Pol
- I don’t know if Admiral Forrest, or any admiral for that matter had any combat experience
- MACO’s aren’t known for deep space missions either

So take the skipper who defeated the Klingons in "The Expanse". Ramirez apparently knows how to win space battles. He'll learn the ropes of the Enterprise quickly enough, with Trip to keep the ship together for him. Or take the skippers of the other two ships in that fight. Or those of the presumably dozens upon dozens of similar Starfleet ships, finally seen in "Storm Front II".

The idea is that MACO weapons are more powerful than Starfleet weapons.

Why would they be? And no, they don't seem to be - the pistols and rifles, I mean.

And is to be expected, since it is a MACO’s area of expertise. They just didn’t loan any to Starfleet for "political" reasons.

Starfleet is so far the only one with starships armed with torpedoes and death rays (although the Boomers have illegal plasma guns on their ships). That seems to be their area of expertise, then. Perhaps the Military has ships of its own, and possibly they are armed. But is the only reason why Starfleet was the exclusive response to the Klingon attack "MACO ships are too slow to bring their superior guns to engagements like this"? And if so, why wouldn't these putative MACO guns be bolted onto the Enterprise in "The Expanse", and those MACO folks opposed to the idea quietly put to death?

That we know of.

Yup. But Starfleet fights all the space battles we see, while MACO fights none of them. Why would this ever change? Also, why are the Boomers mad at Starfleet exclusively for failing to hunt pirates, if they could be mad at multiple parties? It would seem natural for them to pitch such parties against each other there.

Based upon what was seen in the Dominion War with the Federation, Klingons and Romulans, yes they would.

What evidence do we have of a Klingon flagship or a Romulan one in those battles where Sisko (of all people!!!) was in formal command?

That does open up the possibility that ENT is from a parallel timeline as well.

It doesn't play any special role in that respect: ENT or DS9 or, say, the episode "Rascals" could all be from parallel timelines in their own right. Here the noteworthy thing is that the Defiant comes across an inter-universe rift and enters a parallel universe; ENT or DS9 or "Rascals" don't feature such exclusive rifts.

Based upon the uniforms that the Romulans were wearing, in “Balance of Terror,” “The Enterprise Incident,” and The Undiscovered Country – which are very different from the uniforms worn in both ENT and TNG/DS9 - I think there were some significant reforms that occurred behind the scene on Romulus. That includes visual contact with other species, regardless if they are friend or foe.

Well, lack of visual contact was an ENT feature and a TOS feature, despite the different types of uniform. And afterwards, the cat was out of the bag.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FederationHistorian]

So take the skipper who defeated the Klingons in "The Expanse". Ramirez apparently knows how to win space battles. He'll learn the ropes of the Enterprise quickly enough, with Trip to keep the ship together for him. Or take the skippers of the other two ships in that fight. Or those of the presumably dozens upon dozens of similar Starfleet ships, finally seen in "Storm Front II".

Ramirez only has experience on the defensive – in one skirmish. Archer has experience on the offense – in numerous battles. And Starfleet needed to go on the offence.

Also, interestingly, despite the supposed skills of Ramirez, neither he or the other ships are present during the final battle during “Zero Hour.”

Why would they be? And no, they don't seem to be - the pistols and rifles, I mean.

Archer did blow a hole in an Augment after all with a MACO weapon. And I don’t remember the Augments carrying guns.

Starfleet weapons vary between stun and kill settings. MACO weapons have multiple kill settings. Even a phaser wound from a MACO weapon was enough to kill a member of the Andorian Imperial Guard.

At the same time, a farmer’s rifle can take down a Klingon.

Starfleet is so far the only one with starships armed with torpedoes and death rays (although the Boomers have illegal plasma guns on their ships). That seems to be their area of expertise, then. Perhaps the Military has ships of its own, and possibly they are armed. But is the only reason why Starfleet was the exclusive response to the Klingon attack "MACO ships are too slow to bring their superior guns to engagements like this"? And if so, why wouldn't these putative MACO guns be bolted onto the Enterprise in "The Expanse", and those MACO folks opposed to the idea quietly put to death?

Because politics and naiveite. Archer’s sentiment regarding being uncomfortable with soldiers may not have been unique in Starfleet. It was just never discussed in detail.

Maybe that’s why Ramirez wasn’t around to defend the Yosemite 3 station. It was the MACO’s time to shine and they dropped the ball.

Yup. But Starfleet fights all the space battles we see, while MACO fights none of them. Why would this ever change? Also, why are the Boomers mad at Starfleet exclusively for failing to hunt pirates, if they could be mad at multiple parties? It would seem natural for them to pitch such parties against each other there.

Its because Starfleet is moving in on Boomer's turf. Meaning they are hoping Starfleet will take responsibility for the problems Boomers face as well. The MACOs might actually be fighting pirates, or at least providing security. Maybe the Boomers want Starfleet to take over from the MACOs, and are also uncomfortable around them like Archer.

What evidence do we have of a Klingon flagship or a Romulan one in those battles where Sisko (of all people!!!) was in formal command?

During the invasion of Cardassia, Admiral Ross had his flagship leading the Federation (which the novelization says is the USS Farragut). General Martok led the Klingon line with the IKS Rotarran as that was his flagship. And Sisko was told to take the Romulan line with the Defiant after the Romulan flagship was destroyed and their line was collapsing.

So, it makes sense for there to be flagships for an Earth line, Vulcan line, Andorian line, and Tellarite line during the Battle of Charon.

The only different between the alliance against the Dominion and the alliance against the Romulan Empire is that the former is temporary, while the latter leads to something more permanent.

It doesn't play any special role in that respect: ENT or DS9 or, say, the episode "Rascals" could all be from parallel timelines in their own right. Here the noteworthy thing is that the Defiant comes across an inter-universe rift and enters a parallel universe; ENT or DS9 or "Rascals" don't feature such exclusive rifts.

But it does bring both the skipping over of key events in human history (like the Bell Riots and Ares IV) during the time stream in “Storm Front Part II” (it’s quite a noticeable jump in the background) and the events of TATV into perspective - particular older looking Riker and Troi. It does open the possibility that there may be an ENTverse, like there is a Kelvinverse. And both run parallel to the prime universe and maybe mirror universe.

And therefore, probably means that the bios of Archer and Sato might not be wholly accurate. For all we know, the NX-01 served many more years that previously thought, and Archer commanded and Sato served on the NX-01 for many years to come.

Well, lack of visual contact was an ENT feature and a TOS feature, despite the different types of uniform. And afterwards, the cat was out of the bag.

The TOS crew were also physically meeting Romulans. The ENT crew did no such thing.

Timo Saloniemi