Shhh...we're not supposed to let them know its made up all along
ST canon is inconsistent and contradictory.
- Thread starter Trekkie27
- Start date
And its entirely possible she returned to the Ent-B after serving as a lieutenant elsewhere.
Its also entirely possible that Ent-B continued the five year mission, and its captains only served five years each, meaning it reflected humanity far more over a span of 20-40 years. And the Ent-C is similar, except it reflected the founding members of the Federation.
Plus, STO suggests that Demora Sulu did become captain of Ent-B, according to a descendant of hers.
And yes, there probably were lots of female captains around the time of the TMP. Does make me wonder what that ban on female captains during the TOS era was about though. Story wise I mean, obviously.
Personally I just ignore it as all subsequent canon has, which shows female captains and admirals in the DSC/TOS era. But this episode of the Star Trek Continues fan film tries to explain it:
There's some fan-wank that the woman who said that was not in her right mind, or tried to call discrimination, when in reality it was her own shortcomings that prevented her (her specifically) from becoming a captain.And that there really were female captains in the TOS era.
Which yeah, is pretty iffy and not what was presented in the story at the time, but it's the only way it can be brought in line with later installments that show female captains both before and after that time period (such as Georgiou)
Just another inconsistency and a result of the era the show was made in.
From the perspective of the other shows such a ban could have never existed, so there can be no story explanation, and there is not a single possible explanation that would be acceptable to modern audiences (other than that specific character was lying/twisting the truth/crazy)
I'm fairly certain that we'll see TOS era Captains when that Pike show gets made (and there certainly won't be any talk about "not being used to seeing women on the bridge").
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That doesn't explain why it was assumed Kirk would not have been allowed to remain captain if he were in a female body.
Based on a few folks logic maybe it's because the majority audience is mainly human males...they need to be able to identity with the characters, good thing they never asked a black person to be the boss...oops too late
Novels or films that try to explain away 1960's cutural concepts for a TV show set in the future come across as contrived or silly. Its better to do the TMP Klingon thing and pretend whatever is shown or stated on screen at the time was always the practise in universe. So there was never a ban on female captains and Kirk/McCoy's sexist statement in Turnabout Intruder was a reflection of their personal, limited worldview and not the standard 23rd century cultural attitude for human males.
OR Dr. Janice Lester's ramblings were the product of her sick mind and Kirk chose not to correct her
OR crazy Prime Admiral Marcus was allowed to run Starfleet as his own personal harem and limited females to the rank of XO and no higher (to explain Number One)
In "turnabout Intruder" Kirk and Janice say:
This can be interpreted two ways:
1) The official world of starship captains doesn't admit women because of some rule against female starship captains.
or.
2) Kirk's personal life as a starship captain doesn't admit women into (long term) relationships because Kirk is married to the Enterprise and to his career.
And possibly other characters in this episode express the opinion that females can't be starship captains.
But remember what Commodore Stone said in "Court Martial":
If not one man in a million could command a starship, probably not one woman in a million could command a starship either.
And remember what happened in TNG episode "Rascals", when Picard was turned into a 12-year-old boy with all of his memories and personality intact.
And:
So Picard encounters a little reluctance to obey and later steps down from command, because he undergoes the minor change of turning into a 12-year-old boy.
And in "Turnabout Intruder" Kirk might encounter a little reluctance to obey if it was announced that he had undergone a minor change like having his mind transferred to the body of a woman. Could could crew members be certain that the woman was really Kirk? Wouldn't they suspect some plot to replace Kirk with a woman civilian?
So statements in "Turnabout Intruder" about a specific civilian woman, Janice Lester, being unsuited to command a starship, or about Kirk being unable to command while while his mind is in the body of civilian woman, may or may not indicate the existence of a Starfleet rule against female captains.
I also point out that in "The Trouble with Tribbles" Captain Koloth said:
Koloth made the shape of woman's figure with his hands as he spoke, implying there weren't any female crew members on Klingon ships.
But in "Day of the Dove":
So apparently the rules about the presence of female officers on Klingon ships change within about a year or two.
So perhaps Starfleet personnel rules might change just as fast.
Another possibility is that that a tyrannical ruler of a a space travelling society had a grudge against a female human starship captain, and threatened to invade the Federation unless are Humans were expelled from Starfleet. Maybe a diplomat got him to reduce his demands to firing all female human starship captains and not hiring any more, and then all the fmeale starship captains took a leave of absence from Starfleet, patiently waiting for the tyrannical ruler to be assassinated within a few years, as was usual, and be replaced by some other tyrannical ruler who would cancel the policies of his predecessor as usual..
Since I believe that most Star Trek, episodes, except for a few, happen in their own separate alternate universes, different from those of other episodes, it is possible that t"turnabout Intruder" happens in an alternate universe.where there is a rule against women becoming starship captains, and other productions where there isn't such a rule are in different alternate universes.
Since Kirk in Janice's body says:
It is possible that "Turnabout Intruder" happens in the same alternate Universe as "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath".
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I think canon is important, because it adds to our enjoyment of the franchise.
Pretty much what happened in real life. TMP was a change because Roddenberry could no questions asked.
Star Trek's canon* is made up of multiple continuities**.
Just like other franchises such as Star Wars, Stargate, Lost in Space, and Battlestar Galactica.
*= characters and events TPTB deem to be officially part of a franchise
**= timeline/reality/universe in which those characters and events exist
Just like other franchises such as Star Wars, Stargate, Lost in Space, and Battlestar Galactica.
*= characters and events TPTB deem to be officially part of a franchise
**= timeline/reality/universe in which those characters and events exist
It's not, and it doesn't.
In fact, it often seems to stop enjoyment.
Maybe he shouldn't.
Canon is good for keeping track of things. But that's not the same as enjoyment.
I'm okay with them following canon within reason. Certain things are just stupid to continue following and should be amended. But it depends on what we're talking about. Sometimes it's best to just call a spade a spade and admit they hadn't worked everything out yet toward the beginning, or that things that worked for the audience in a previous decade wouldn't work now.
It doesn't make me like what they made before any less but it's also acknowledging that things have to adapt to a degree going forward. To a degree. That's not the same as throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's not some bullshit one-or-the-other binary deal.
I'm okay with them following canon within reason. Certain things are just stupid to continue following and should be amended. But it depends on what we're talking about. Sometimes it's best to just call a spade a spade and admit they hadn't worked everything out yet toward the beginning, or that things that worked for the audience in a previous decade wouldn't work now.
It doesn't make me like what they made before any less but it's also acknowledging that things have to adapt to a degree going forward. To a degree. That's not the same as throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's not some bullshit one-or-the-other binary deal.
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I think in-series continuity is more important than franchise-wide canon, for me as a fan/watcher. I think the only time franchise-wide canon would be important to me would be if I tried to write fan-fic or something.
Eh...I found the idea way too try-hard and navel-gazing. We all know it's a show and a work of fiction, no point in pointing that out. What amazing things are we gonna learn next episode? That water is wet?
Eh...I found the idea way too try-hard and navel-gazing. We all know it's a show and a work of fiction, no point in pointing that out. What amazing things are we gonna learn next episode? That water is wet?
Canon is important to me - the other franchise has a keeper of the Holocron and a story group that is responsible for film, TV, animation, and video game stories, ensuring a consistency. I think it was a mistake to have Klingons being different, as well as the Starfleet uniforms being different.
But even Star Wars was brave or creative enough to show alien creatures in lead positions. Or just regular positions. They constantly mixed things up, diversity wise..
The Jedi council looked like it was only 10 percent human. Hell, Yoda was a green, puppet elf thing, and he was a Jedi master and the leader of the council. And one of the most popular characters in pop culture.
That's creative-- I have to respect Star Wars on that.
In Star Trek it's taken for granted that humans are the leaders. In some scenes when you look at the bridge of a starship (80-90's era) everyone is a human. Humans are basically the face of the Federation
But then there's that one line at the end ..."her life could have been as rich as any woman's" If the first few scenes don't seal it, this one just about does.
You have to wonder, how could they (the creators, producers or writers ) possibly make such a sexist mistake, knowing full well what their canon says about evolving past sexist discrimination in the first place?
You have to do a lot of verbal gymnastics to get past that one.
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