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How does the Romulan singularity core work?

James89901

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
Yes yes, I know it's all star trek mumbo jumbo. Yet star trek still does make attempts at explaining quite a few things in it with a relatively high amount of its ideas based in real world theories.

I'm not well versed in exactly how the star trek writers went about things, but I assume they had access to scientists of all fields when they wrote the show. Perhaps they themselves had also done work in some areas of the hard sciences.

So perhaps they explained their theory on how a Romulan starship somehow extracted energy from their artificial black hole. Does anyone know how they explained how it works? ... If they ever did explain it.
 
Extracting energy from a black hole is pretty easy. You just dump stuff into it, and as the stuff spirals in and forms an accretion disk, it gets really hot and dense and radiates a lot of energy before it falls in. (Nice way to get rid of waste too.) Or you can harness the rotational energy of its magnetic field like a pretty conventional electrical generator. Or if it's small enough to give off a lot of Hawking radiation, you can just use that. More detailed discussion here:

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/20813/how-would-a-black-hole-power-plant-work
 
Extracting energy from a black hole is pretty easy. You just dump stuff into it, and as the stuff spirals in and forms an accretion disk, it gets really hot and dense and radiates a lot of energy before it falls in. (Nice way to get rid of waste too.) Or you can harness the rotational energy of its magnetic field like a pretty conventional electrical generator. Or if it's small enough to give off a lot of Hawking radiation, you can just use that. More detailed discussion here:

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/20813/how-would-a-black-hole-power-plant-work

I never imagined Hawkins radiation having anything to do with this stuff considering how little of it there theoretically is coming from a black hole.

Also just dumping matter into the swirl seems so inefficient compared to the starfleet anti-matter reactors. Geordi I believe says he got the enterprise reactor energy conversion above 92% or something. Now I don't remember if he was talking about the percentage of particles annihilated or energy gathered from the reactions. Yet I struggle to see how any matter undergoing fusion or fission reactions in the swirl of such a small black hole could ever release enough energy that would be in the realm of a reactor with the ability to produce complete matter annihilation.

I always assumed the Romulans had way to extract the energy from the core of the blackhole and that maybe star trek expanded on that in some trekky way.

If they really are harnessing hawking radiation, fusion/fission reactions, and the magnetic field. Then I guess that could work. Although a huge huge waste of resources when they could just be converting anything they dump into it into pure energy instead haha.
 
In Trek-specific terms, our heroes and villains are masters of manipulating gravity and inertia. This should in theory allow them to break all sorts of conservation laws currently believed to exist, and extract energy literally out of nowhere.

Toying with gravity is intuitively closely coupled with artificially creating singularities. If lifting yourself by your own bootstraps is doable with Trek gravitics, then it should be overdoable by applying the technology to the theoretical extreme, that is, all the way down to a singularity.

Of course, it is also possible that AQS powerplants are highly inefficient. Their virtue might lie in them being highly stealthy and thus ideally applied as main power systems for cloakships, much like air-independent chemical propulsion systems today are used despite their inferior performance in comparison with air-breathing ones.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I never imagined Hawkins radiation having anything to do with this stuff considering how little of it there theoretically is coming from a black hole.

The amount of Hawking radiation from a black hole is inversely proportional to its mass. The smaller it is, the faster it radiates. An artificial singularity like a Romulan ship's core could be much smaller than stellar mass and thus give off a lot of Hawking radiation, although releasing all that energy would reduce its mass and it would eventually evaporate unless the mass supply were replenished. The reason we don't see a lot of microsingularities is because they would've long since gone poof by now.

Also just dumping matter into the swirl seems so inefficient compared to the starfleet anti-matter reactors.

Perhaps, but you don't have to worry about the engine exploding (well, unless you let it evaporate all the way -- again, the energy release gets greater the smaller the hole gets, so its final moments are intense). Plus it's just one of several ways you can get energy from a black hole, so maybe using multiple methods at once could make up for it.


I always assumed the Romulans had way to extract the energy from the core of the blackhole and that maybe star trek expanded on that in some trekky way.

There are probably ways to harness the gravitational potential energy of a black hole, but of course, dumping matter into it is one of those ways, because it converts that gravitational potential into kinetic and thermal energy.


If they really are harnessing hawking radiation, fusion/fission reactions, and the magnetic field. Then I guess that could work. Although a huge huge waste of resources when they could just be converting anything they dump into it into pure energy instead haha.

Matter/antimatter reaction would not be a perfect 100% conversion of mass to energy except on paper. Reacting an electron and positron would just get you a gamma ray, but if you annihilate protons and antiprotons -- let alone deuterons and antideuterons as Trek warp drives do -- you'd get a complicated mess of unstable mesons that would then decay into a mix of photons, electrons, positrons, and neutrinos. IIRC, the neutrinos would take away a fair percentage of the energy, because they don't react with anything. You'd also probably have a few unreacted nucleons left over, because those things are really tiny and it's hard to get them to actually hit each other reliably, even with a dilithium lattice channeling them into each other on a microscopic scale. What's left is presumably the warp plasma that goes to the engines. It's not "pure energy" (which is just a fanciful way of saying electromagnetic radiation), just a very hot stream of energized subatomic particles, which isn't that different from what you'd get from the accretion disk around a singularity.
 
The amount of Hawking radiation from a black hole is inversely proportional to its mass. The smaller it is, the faster it radiates. An artificial singularity like a Romulan ship's core could be much smaller than stellar mass and thus give off a lot of Hawking radiation, although releasing all that energy would reduce its mass and it would eventually evaporate unless the mass supply were replenished. The reason we don't see a lot of microsingularities is because they would've long since gone poof by now.



Perhaps, but you don't have to worry about the engine exploding (well, unless you let it evaporate all the way -- again, the energy release gets greater the smaller the hole gets, so its final moments are intense). Plus it's just one of several ways you can get energy from a black hole, so maybe using multiple methods at once could make up for it.




There are probably ways to harness the gravitational potential energy of a black hole, but of course, dumping matter into it is one of those ways, because it converts that gravitational potential into kinetic and thermal energy.




Matter/antimatter reaction would not be a perfect 100% conversion of mass to energy except on paper. Reacting an electron and positron would just get you a gamma ray, but if you annihilate protons and antiprotons -- let alone deuterons and antideuterons as Trek warp drives do -- you'd get a complicated mess of unstable mesons that would then decay into a mix of photons, electrons, positrons, and neutrinos. IIRC, the neutrinos would take away a fair percentage of the energy, because they don't react with anything. You'd also probably have a few unreacted nucleons left over, because those things are really tiny and it's hard to get them to actually hit each other reliably, even with a dilithium lattice channeling them into each other on a microscopic scale. What's left is presumably the warp plasma that goes to the engines. It's not "pure energy" (which is just a fanciful way of saying electromagnetic radiation), just a very hot stream of energized subatomic particles, which isn't that different from what you'd get from the accretion disk around a singularity.

Yes "hawking". Thanks for the spelling lesson haha, but that was a mistake and it was spelt correctly in the last paragraph of that post.

I don't know how to quote paragraphs on here because I'm new so I'll just use quotations and copy and paste...

"Matter/antimatter reaction would not be a perfect 100% conversion of mass to energy except on paper. Reacting an electron and positron would just get you a gamma ray, but if you annihilate protons and antiprotons -- let alone deuterons and antideuterons as Trek warp drives do -- you'd get a complicated mess of unstable mesons that would then decay into a mix of photons, electrons, positrons, and neutrinos. IIRC, the neutrinos would take away a fair percentage of the energy, because they don't react with anything. You'd also probably have a few unreacted nucleons left over, because those things are really tiny and it's hard to get them to actually hit each other reliably, even with a dilithium lattice channeling them into each other on a microscopic scale. What's left is presumably the warp plasma that goes to the engines. It's not "pure energy" (which is just a fanciful way of saying electromagnetic radiation), just a very hot stream of energized subatomic particles, which isn't that different from what you'd get from the accretion disk around a singularity."

I don't agree with this statement in relation to star trek or even physics in general at some points...

1. Electron-positron annihilation does not always just yield a gamma ray. I'm assuming you're speaking in terms of the overall process of the reaction because you mentioned the final state particles in the deuteron-antideuteron annihilation rather than anything inbetween. So I assume your statement of electron-positron annihilation was all encompassing. With that said... With sufficient kinetic energy involved in the collision, it's possible the reaction produces heavier particles because the rest mass and kinetic energies of the two colliding particles could be enough for that of the rest energy of a heavier particle to be created.

2. I don't think the difference in proton-antiproton and deuteron-antideuteron is relevant here. We're talking about star trek and starships designed with peak efficiency in mind. So it goes to reason that they would be using a type of fuel that would allow for a high power conversion which fits their technology. Therefore, for them, deuterium and antideuterium would be more efficient, regardless of the small cross section the neutrons have for collision, than would electron-positron annihilation. We should assume they have overcome any hurdles involved in making collision possible to a point whereby the mass of deuteron-antideuteron particles and binding energy is converted to "usable" power at the same or higher conversion rates as that of the same mass of electron-positron reactions.

3. There's just no way I see the federation using deuteron-antideuteron annihilation as a form of power generation if they're doing it by only harnessing the matter stream of the subatomic particles yielded from the reactions. It makes no sense considering they can control gravity and change inertia and many other things considered undoable at our present time. Obviously I can't be sure how they explain this stuff, but a matter stream of energized particles from such a poor energy conversion reaction seems so unlikely considering they could just use proton-antiproton reactions for a better result. I certainly prefer to view the anti-matter reactors as employing more efficient methods than modern humans are able to know about right now. That's just me though maybe.

4. Whilst, yes, the reaction would no doubt be a mess by today's standards in terms of resultant particles and our ability to effectively harness some kind of power from all of them considering total annihilation in such a reaction is highly unlikely. But like I said before, I'm talking about star trek here, so I'm assuming that their methods of controlling and channelling energy is far beyond ours. Which was also why I wondered if the writers made an attempt at explaining a singularity drive.

"The amount of Hawking radiation from a black hole is inversely proportional to its mass. The smaller it is, the faster it radiates. An artificial singularity like a Romulan ship's core could be much smaller than stellar mass and thus give off a lot of Hawking radiation, although releasing all that energy would reduce its mass and it would eventually evaporate unless the mass supply were replenished. The reason we don't see a lot of microsingularities is because they would've long since gone poof by now."

Yes "hawking" radiation. Thank you for the spelling lesson haha, but it was only a mistake as you can see it was spelt correctly on the last paragraph of that other post I made.

The reason I said hawking radiation doesn't apply here in such small amounts is because of the size of the black holes used on the Romulan ships. They were huge. They were about a meter in diameter or something like that. Starfleet antimatter reactors produce terawatts of power according to Geordi. Therefore a meter wide black hole isn't going to produce anything close to that amount in hawking radiation. Not even a 1cm wide black hole could.

I read once that a blackhole with the mass of mount Everest could output something like a few million megawatts. Such a blackhole could work to power a starship like in star trek. Yet it basically couldn't even be seen, let alone be a meter across like we were shown in TNG. Perhaps the writers just miscalculated the size of it, or used a larger one for the sake of the show looking good. However I was mostly curious if anyone had insight into exactly how the writers explained how their singularity drives worked. Meaning that perhaps they had some fictional way of explaining things. That's what I was most curious about.
 
2. I don't think the difference in proton-antiproton and deuteron-antideuteron is relevant here.

I never said it was. You're fixating on isolated word choices and missing the forest for the trees. The point is that the annihilation of nucleons and antinucleons does not produce "pure energy," but rather produces a mix of photons and subatomic particles. That's just basic physics. So unless we abandon any pretense that Star Trek antimatter works like the real thing (in which case there's no point even trying to theorize because it's all just nonsense then), we have to accept that the M/ARC produces just such a mix of photons and particles, and presumably that is the composition of the warp plasma that is canonically how the energy is transfered from the reactor to the nacelles through the power transfer conduits.


However I was mostly curious if anyone had insight into exactly how the writers explained how their singularity drives worked. Meaning that perhaps they had some fictional way of explaining things. That's what I was most curious about.

That wouldn't have been the writers' job. Their job was to focus on the story and characters and dialogue. Figuring out the technical details would've been the job of the science consultants, Rick Sternbach and Michael Okuda. Fortunately both of them are members of this BBS and might comment here if they see this thread. But I would assume that they got the idea for the singularity core from earlier uses of the concept in other science fiction. I remember that Arthur C. Clarke's novel Imperial Earth featured an early use of the concept of a microscopic black hole as a spacecraft's power source.
 
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Soliton_wave
Although the test began promisingly, displaying a 98% energy transfer efficiency of the soliton wave that was 450% more efficient than the Enterprise's own warp engines,

Given that statement, I would presume that the Enterprise-D / Galaxy class has a Energy Conversion Efficiency of Electro-Plasma to Warp Field / FTL Movement of ~21.778% given that the Soliton Wave transfering energy to the Soliton Wave Rider and going to Warp has a 98% energy efficiency in the beginning phases before the Soliton Wave Rider went boom.
 
Well, for a Artificial Micro Singularity might be a better energy storage device.
Lets take Antimatter.. It doesn't usually exist in the universe in usable amounts, so all the antimatter in ships are "created" and stored, and this is taking hydrogen or deuterium and converting it to antimatter, which takes ALOT of energy to do, but these production stations maybe close to a star and use solar energy to make it.. but either way.. its an energy intensive way to store "Possible Energy" in star ships to use.. but more powerful than a fusion engine.
Now a Micro singularity may be by romulan standards, a better way to "Store" energy than antimatter.. You still have a problem of containment, but same for Antimatter.. containment goes, you go boom..
 
But the thing about the Romulan Artificial Quantum Singularity Reactors is that it seems that you can feed it any type of matter as long as you drip feed it at a slow and steady rate to pump out whatever rays it has and convert it to Electro Plasma for transmission.
 
But the thing about the Romulan Artificial Quantum Singularity Reactors is that it seems that you can feed it any type of matter as long as you drip feed it at a slow and steady rate to pump out whatever rays it has and convert it to Electro Plasma for transmission.

Like Doc Brown feeding garbage to his Mr. Fusion!
 
Kinda, but there must be some intermediate steps to process the garbage into usable matter for feeding exact/specific particles to the Fusion Reactor.

Yeah, I realized long ago that the device couldn't possibly work as shown. For fusion, you'd need hydrogen, ideally deuterium, so what you'd need isn't random garbage, but water. Of course it's a fantasy, just as much as the "flux capacitor."

But with a microsingularity, it actually would work with any matter, as you say.
 
It works in the same way warp drive does; very sensibly, according to physics not yet developed as of 2020.
 
It works in the same way warp drive does; very sensibly, according to physics not yet developed as of 2020.

Oh, we already know the physics of how warp drive would work; Miguel Alcubierre and others have been working that out since 1994 (and of course the basic concept is extrapolated from General Relativity to begin with). It's just that the engineering problems may be insurmountable.

Besides, Romulan ships do use warp drive; the singularity core is just the power source for it, a substitute for the Federation's matter-antimatter reactors. And we understand the physics of both power sources; again, we just haven't found the engineering solutions to make them practical (like how to manufacture and store large amounts of antimatter, or how to make a microsingularity).
 
Oh, we already know the physics of how warp drive would work; Miguel Alcubierre and others have been working that out since 1994 (and of course the basic concept is extrapolated from General Relativity to begin with). It's just that the engineering problems may be insurmountable.

Besides, Romulan ships do use warp drive; the singularity core is just the power source for it, a substitute for the Federation's matter-antimatter reactors. And we understand the physics of both power sources; again, we just haven't found the engineering solutions to make them practical (like how to manufacture and store large amounts of antimatter, or how to make a microsingularity).
I tend to view things via an engineering pov, was one 35 years ago...
 
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