Michael Chabon vs Trekkies

[frankieteardrop]

Yet another thoughtful response from Chabon from his Instagram stories:

Q: Is there a link between STP (Federation downfall) and Disco S3 (Federation gone)?

Chabon: "Federation downfall?" What Federation downfall? The Federation is still very much alive and well and home to trillions (quadrillions?) of safe, housed, fed, educated citizens with the potential to lead fulfilling lives. There was a crisis 15 years ago, in the wake of the costly Dominion War and the Romulan emergency, which had a negative impact on the lives of many people, including most of our principal characters, in one way or another, during which Starfleet (and by extension the Federation) did not acquit itself well - in Picard's eyes. From Admiral Clancy's viewpoint, which is likely the mainstream view, Picard's attitude was unrealistic, quixotic, and even dangerous. She may be right! They may both be right, and both wrong. But that was fifteen years ago, and the Federation is still going strong. Perhaps in the eyes of some it lost its luster, its air of invulnerability, its claim to the moral high ground, a process that began during DS9 times. That is hardly a "downfall", though.

As a massive DS9 fan, I'm glad to see him mention the Dominion War. The end of DS9 and VOY set up so many potential avenues for storytelling, especially with respect to the long-term effects such a devastating war would have on the Federaiton and the Alpha Quadrant at large, and I've found it frustrating that instead of capitalizing on that, TPTB gave us two prequel series instead. Hopefully we'll learn more about some of the long-term effects of the war in seasons two and three of PIC.

 

[Phily B]

I'm really flabbergasted at how many people seem to go on about Federation/Starfleet being these perfect organisations, it's like you have to ignore 90% of TNG and DS9.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm really flabbergasted at how many people seem to go on about Federation/Starfleet being these perfect organisations, it's like you have to ignore 90% of TNG and DS9.

Human memory is faulty and nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

 

[Phily B]

Human memory is faulty and nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

I don't think Picard is perfect, but the idea that it isn't "real Trek" is just the dumbest thing.

I mean "Enterprise" exists. Picard and the writers, so far, are writing within canon of TNG and the 24th century. Compeltely.

Which is something the writers of Enterprise horribly ignored.

 

[suarezguy]

I'm really flabbergasted at how many people seem to go on about Federation/Starfleet being these perfect organisations, it's like you have to ignore 90% of TNG and DS9.

I think it was a very rare exception for the Federation or Starfleet to be portrayed as ruthless or incompetent in TNG.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm not seeing Starfleet as that now.

 

[Phily B]

I think it was a very rare exception for the Federation or Starfleet to be portrayed as ruthless or incompetent in TNG.

Where they portrayed like that in Picard?

 

[urbandk]

I don't think Picard is perfect, but the idea that it isn't "real Trek" is just the dumbest thing.

I mean "Enterprise" exists. Picard and the writers, so far, are writing within canon of TNG and the 24th century. Compeltely.

Which is something the writers of Enterprise horribly ignored.

This this this.

ENT had to come up with a whole cockamamie temporal cold war thing to bend the rules about what could and couldn't happen in their show.

They more or less had a clean slate in the 22nd century but that wasn't good enough.

Discovery had a minefield in comparison.

 

[DaveyNY]

The only problem ENTERPRISE had as far as I'm concerned, was the overeager
'Head-Canon-Status' of a multitude of folks who weren't willing to let that go.

I watched ENTERPRISE with little to no expectations that it would in any way comply with my previous notions and enjoyed it immensely right up to that very disappointing final episode.

 

[suarezguy]

Where they portrayed like that in Picard?

I have not watched the show but from reviews and summaries they seem to be.

Creating androids for manual labor, if not slavery, who later killed thousands of them and then 12 years later not knowing why they did so.
Letting ex-Borgs be tortured and harvested for their implants.
Maddox working with someone who tortured and harvested from ex-Borgs.
Maddox's former colleague and Picard's current colleague, co-star of the show, killing Maddox.
Picard's former first officer being a drug addict.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Creating androids for manual labor, if not slavery, who later killed thousands of them and then 12 years later not knowing why they did so. Cannot comment, hopefully we'll learn more about it.
Letting ex-Borgs be tortured and harvested for their implants. That was outside of Federation space, in the Neutral Zone. How do you suggest the Federation should react? Or if you mean the Artifact, they don't torture the Borg.
Maddox working with someone who tortured and harvested from ex-Borgs. That was outside of Federation space, in the Neutral Zone. How do you suggest the Federation should react?

 

[fireproof78]

The Federation used holograms as slave labor.

 

[Phily B]

I have not watched the show but from reviews and summaries they seem to be.

Creating androids for manual labor, if not slavery, who later killed thousands of them and then 12 years later not knowing why they did so.
Letting ex-Borgs be tortured and harvested for their implants.
Maddox working with someone who tortured and harvested from ex-Borgs.
Maddox's former colleague and Picard's current colleague, co-star of the show, killing Maddox.
Picard's former first officer being a drug addict.

They used holograms as slave labour to do dangerous jobs, how is this any different? Especially if the Androids were not as perfect or as sentient as Data, which they didn't appear to be. We know that holograms can start to develop personalities too, if they're so inclined to operate continuously.

Who says they "let ex-Borgs be tortured"? Icheb was a Starfleet member who was kidnapped and killed for his parts. It wasn't Starfleet who allowed it, was it? It was a nefarious organisation harvesting the parts for profit. Is that any different than the people who coveted Data as an object?

Maddox, someone who wanted to have Data declared non-sentient and as a Starfleet slave in TNG, you're really using him as an example of Starfleet/Federation kindness and understanding?! And Jurati clearly isn't killing Maddox because of pleasure, she is either being influenced and manipulated by a Romulan infiltrator.

There is nothing wrong with being an addict. People in the 24th Century still have problems with addiction and mental illness, we have seen it already. It is something that really confuses people, honestly. Look at Reg, he clearly had issues with mental illness including addiction, and the TNG episode had a lot of the crew making fun of him for fucks sake, they even mention holo-addiction.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

The Mars androids were robots, built so they looked like humans. Not sentient. Would you say your floor-cleaning robot is a slave?! If not, just putting it in a human-like shell wouldn't make it more sentient. Same with non-sentient holograms.

 

[AlanC9]

I have not watched the show but from reviews and summaries they seem to be.

Creating androids for manual labor, if not slavery, who later killed thousands of them and then 12 years later not knowing why they did so.
Letting ex-Borgs be tortured and harvested for their implants.
Maddox working with someone who tortured and harvested from ex-Borgs.
Maddox's former colleague and Picard's current colleague, co-star of the show, killing Maddox.
Picard's former first officer being a drug addict.

How come you haven't watched it? I mean, you're interested enough in it to come here and read stuff...

 

[Qonundrum]

I think it was a very rare exception for the Federation or Starfleet to be portrayed as ruthless or incompetent in TNG.

Mostly in season 7, but just to eke out another story that felt comparatively lively from a show that was just about running on fumes, as DS9 did the same stuff better by then and with more substance (which TNG could not do)...TNG couldn't have an 8th season where every episode was "Another Admiral Pressman Trope(tm), again".

Or "Conspiracy" but the Feds were taken over by alien critters that, when sauteed with garlic and butter might be very tasty on a bed of lettuce. Mmmm, seafood... :9

 

[thribs]

Someone ask him about why they didn’t go to Ba’ku.

 

[suarezguy]

Letting ex-Borgs be tortured and harvested for their implants. That was outside of Federation space, in the Neutral Zone. How do you suggest the Federation should react?

Applying diplomatic and economic pressure to stop it would be very appropriate, not sure if the show has that it tried to do so if so it was ineffective.

The Federation has previously been portrayed, including in TNG, as not being able to solve all the injustices outside of its borders, and being unwilling to try to solve them through military force, and that inability a possible flaw of the Federation, but that's just one aspect.

Maddox working with someone who tortured and harvested from ex-Borgs. That was outside of Federation space, in the Neutral Zone. How do you suggest the Federation should react?

That Maddox with the high position he had in the Federation would then do that, even if after he left, is I think itself portraying Federation society and Starfleet as ruthless. It definitely presents a sour, even nasty epilogue to the TNG series and Data's portrayal and development in general and specifically to "The Measure of a Man" and the idea that Maddox grew to respect Data.

The Federation used holograms as slave labor.

Not in TNG but more significantly when it happened in Voyager it was when advanced holograms were pretty new and it was also implied that from what the Federation knew and would learn about the Doctor it would be ended.

 

[Spot261]

Not in TNG but more significantly when it happened in Voyager it was when advanced holograms were pretty new and it was also implied that from what the Federation knew and would learn about the Doctor it would be ended.

And yet how much autonomy are Mendez's holograms allowed?

For that matter how much protest does Picard offer when they are summarily dismissed into the ether when no longer needed? Funny how he can be so concerned about the treatment of one form of synthetic life but be utterly blase about another.

 

[suarezguy]

How come you haven't watched it? I mean, you're interested enough in it to come here and read stuff...

Don't want to watch something I won't like especially if it could tarnish something I did like especially if I would have to pay to watch it. But I was interested enough, especially about Seven's involvement, to read some jammersreviews and then memoryalpha.

I was suspicious of rather than excited about the show from early on due to being disappointed with Stewart's returns in X-Men: Days of Future Past (which I did watch) and Logan (which I similarly read about and skipped).