Spoilers Supergirl - Season 5

[TheMadCloner]

Uhh, no you didn't. You complained only that Superman and Supergirl were "too weak" as if they alone were being singled out this way, while my point is that they're portrayed as proportionally no weaker than any other heroes in the Arrowverse, all of whom are treated the exact same way.

I addressed the point about dramatic license. Not sure why you’re bringing in other characters from other shows. The discussion is about SM and SG, not about GA or Flash. But yes, Flash is underpowered as well. I don’t have a problem with dramatic license overall - SG shouldn’t be able to heat laser through everything like Swiss cheese, it’s impractical to have Flash solve everything within one minute because of his incredible speed, etc. I do have a problem with lazy writing that makes SG appear unreasonably weak for the sole purpose of plotting.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I wonder if the site could add a rolleyes emoji making, like, a jerking-off motion? Because that would really come in handy (no pun intended).

The memory of butthurt MRAs is long.

Flaming members adds nothing except immaturity to this--or any thread.

 

[The Realist]

Flaming members adds nothing except immaturity to this--or any thread.

Who are you calling a "flaming member"?

 

[JD]

I finally got caught up today and I've enjoyed the last few episode.
I'm a big Winn fan, so I really enjoyed his two parter, the stuff with the evil doppleganger, and then his run in with his father was a nice way to have him deal with his Toyman related issue. I liked them having him take on that name at te end, that was a nice way to show that he's dealt with all of that once and for all.
The 100th episode as a lot of fun, with Thomas Lennon's Mxyzplk was a lot of fun, and I liked getting to see alternate versions of the different storylines and former cast members. It was nice to see Kara finally accept that Lena will not simply forgive her and rejoin team Supergirl.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

PS

Shouldn't all those "pasts" have been different, becuase they're now living on Earth Prime and not Earth 38?

Nope.

We are watching Supergirl's memories of her relationship with Lena on Earth 38, not Earth Prime's memories of SG and Lena.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Supergirl was a paragon. Her memories shouldn't have been altered. But every non-paragon should be remembering Earth Prime solely--with the exception of Lena and the people J'onn woke up

 

[Snaploud]

Nope.

We are watching Supergirl's memories of her relationship with Lena on Earth 38, not Earth Prime's memories of SG and Lena.

I don't think those were memories. I believe Mxy was somehow accessing the pre-crisis timeline of Earth 38.

 

[Christopher]

We are watching Supergirl's memories of her relationship with Lena on Earth 38, not Earth Prime's memories of SG and Lena.

I don't think it makes that much difference anyway. Basically all the shows are assuming that the characters' backstories are largely the same as they were pre-Crisis with only minor tweaks. The only major changes are those that serve the stories.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Nope.

We are watching Supergirl's memories of her relationship with Lena on Earth 38, not Earth Prime's memories of SG and Lena.

If we are watching Supergirl's memories of Earth 38, then how does altering those memories in her head change reality on Earth Prime?

When Mxyzptlk was talking about her "memories" that was just the targeting system they were using to lock down where in time was safe and good to time jerk the moment.

Kara forgot about the day that Kryptonite was seeded into all the air on Earth.

Is she thick?

 

[Tuskin38]

nd it was never really explained how Mxy got sucked into that last one along with Kara.

I assumed he chose to come along, as he didn't seem surprised to be in there.

 

[Ovation]

Unfortunately, they absolutely did make Superman weak. There's a line between humble and weak, and they crossed it numerous times. Superman is the top dog. The hero of heroes. Superman is Kara's hero. But the sole purpose of having Superman on Supergirl was to get his ass beat in a terrible effort to make Kara look strong, which ironically made her look weak.

Superman wasn't humble--the writers took every opportunity to make Kara appear stronger in every little thing, physically and mentally. He lost every fight he was in, not just to Kara, but to every Joe Schmoe.

Superman is supposed to be inspirational. You can lift others up without being their punching bag. This version is not humble, he's weak in every way.

Superman is a leader, the first to take the punishment, and while he's humble enough to be grateful for help, he's protective enough to make sure he will be the one to take on the big bad. Superman would never need Kara to give him a pep talk. He would never say something so incredibly stupid like, "the world doesn't need a Superman when it has Supergirl."

Superman is the guy people turn to for guidance and leadership, and the Superman so far in the Arrowverse has been a weak sidekick.

And yes, you see the difference in the Routh version in COIE. The best thing they can do is use the COIE to power Superman up and actually strengthen the character.



Exactly. They didn't just have Superman there to support Kara, which could absolutely be done without making the character look so weak. But the writers made a conscious choice to portray this version as a submissive to Kara, someone who will take out advertisements to say "Supergirl is better than me."

I thought Superman's initial appearance was near perfect. Kara and Superman helped each other out, Superman was still her hero and mentor, and was not weakened just to make Supergirl look good. On the contrary, each had something to do, and they played well off each other. It was the subsequent appearances that the writers decided to engage in character assassination for the sake of their agenda.

It was a big turn off to the series, and I really hope they use the new series to make Superman stronger.



The fact that it took Kara this long to realize that she is not responsible for Lena's actions says a lot, but better late than never. It's time Lena is treated like a full blown villain. With her memories in tact, she absolutely is.



And the writers should have been secure enough in Supergirl to accept her as a very close second, rather than weaken their strongest character. But Superman hasn't been portrayed as a very close second. He has been portrayed as both physically AND mentally weak. He went from mentor to submissive in one episode, and that's not Superman.



Superman would have been someone who fought Zod before, fought Doomsday, fought Mongul, and all of them are well trained. And he has known J'onn for years, as well as Batman. Themyscera exists on this universe which might also mean he knows Wonder Woman--he is far more than self taught, and given Superman's years of experience, Kara training for a year is hardly going to equalize that.

Regarding the 10 seconds longer, they chose not to explain that and took yet another opportunity for Superman to say, "hey! You are so much better than me!" again.



That means very little in the context of the Arrowverse. Superman would have been perfect as a mentor that occasionally visits and helps out when things are big. Good writing will have Superman more powerful, as he should be, without weakening Kara. As others have suggested, he can lift Kara up without being put down himself. Why write a story where Superman is a) weak enough to be mind controlled, and b) fight Kara? The only reason they did that was to make Kara stronger, which is obviously not going over well. They had a chance to give Superman an out too--he is naturally trained to hold back and didn't fight the same way he would had he been himself. But they chose not to do that.

Look at Superman's very first appearance--THAT is the situation where your fact pattern worked perfectly.



Exactly. You can't make Supergirl strong by making Superman weak. They took away so many of Clark's best qualities. He is the hero of heroes. He would be her hero, not the other way around. He is the one people turn to for advice, like she did in the first season. If there is something that requires him to help, it would have to be big enough so that there is plenty for both to do, without making one of them look weak.



Except here, he has never shown any strength. Being a doormat is not strength, and that's all he has been so far. He even lost that fight to himself which had nothing to do with Kara. In a situation like Crisis, Superman would take the lead--he wouldn't just follow. He would inspire. Again, I point to Routh's authoritativeness compared to Hoeschlin needing to be talked off the ledge by Supergirl.

Ultimately, unless they change Tyler's version, it won't work. Hopefully, in universe, they can say the COIE powered him up a lot, and the writers will understand and hear all the complaints about how he has been portrayed so far and respond.

So. Much. Yawn.

 

[Kirk Prime]

So. Much. Yawn.

Brilliant retort.

If we are watching Supergirl's memories of Earth 38, then how does altering those memories in her head change reality on Earth Prime?

A fair point--one would have to assume a lot of differences (trillions, according to Gideon), and many of them would affect Supergirl's history. But I guess in the end, they didn't change anything with Mxy, so it doesn't matter. Supergirl and Lena remember Earth 38. So seeing how things may have played out there might be possible. Lena's reactions might be on point.

 

[Ovation]

Brilliant retort.

To yet another wrongheaded, long-winded rant about “CW Superman is such an emasculated weakling so SJW Supergirl can shine”? Yes. It is.

 

[Kirk Prime]

To yet another wrongheaded, long-winded rant about “CW Superman is such an emasculated weakling so SJW Supergirl can shine”? Yes. It is.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. But I love the tolerance you show for opinions that don't match yours. And yes, the writers turned Superman into an emasculated weakling so SJW Supergirl can shine. If that bothers you, so be it.

 

[Ovation]

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. But I love the tolerance you show for opinions that don't match yours. And yes, the writers turned Superman into an emasculated weakling so SJW Supergirl can shine. If that bothers you, so be it.

They did nothing of the kind. They simply offered a Superman that disappointed you. That’s not wrong..of them. However, you are quite wrong on the facts. You don’t have to like what they actually did, but your tediously repetitive (and ERRONEOUS) descriptions of something not actually there is So. Much. Yawn.

 

[Kirk Prime]

They did nothing of the kind. They simply offered a Superman that disappointed you. That’s not wrong..of them. However, you are quite wrong on the facts. You don’t have to like what they actually did, but your tediously repetitive (and ERRONEOUS) descriptions of something not actually there is So. Much. Yawn.

Because he was completely out of character and a total wimp. Yes, they offered a Superman that disappointed me, and I am not alone. Look around message boards that aren't in this intolerant bubble. There's nothing erroneous about anything I have said. You don't have to like what I say, but it is not factually wrong. Quite the opposite. Just because you like an emasculated, submissive wimp as Superman, doesn't mean that others do. I would argue that if this were Superman for the last 80 years, the character would never have been popular. Whether you consider it tedious or not is irrelevant. This Superman, to date, has been used as solely a jobber to Supergirl and anyone else who fought him. My hope is that the writers of the new show are freed from this ridiculous interpretation and actually write Superman rather than a wimp poorly dressed like him.

 

[Ovation]

Because he was completely out of character and a total wimp. Yes, they offered a Superman that disappointed me, and I am not alone. Look around message boards that aren't in this intolerant bubble. There's nothing erroneous about anything I have said. You don't have to like what I say, but it is not factually wrong. Quite the opposite. Just because you like an emasculated, submissive wimp as Superman, doesn't mean that others do. I would argue that if this were Superman for the last 80 years, the character would never have been popular. Whether you consider it tedious or not is irrelevant. This Superman, to date, has been used as solely a jobber to Supergirl and anyone else who fought him. My hope is that the writers of the new show are freed from this ridiculous interpretation and actually write Superman rather than a wimp poorly dressed like him.

Yawning intensifies.

 

[Tuskin38]

Because he was completely out of character

Not for the arrowverse.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Superman has to be a wimp.

If a man who can push the moon out if orbit, acts like he can push the moon out of orbit, that is a huge Steve Lombard personality.

There's no point in reminding everyone who is weaker than you, that they are weaker than you because it's really obnoxious.

 

[Noname Given]

I’m not sure they can have a pregnant woman running around and getting hit by supervillains, in terms of PC.

IDK - Worked for Scarlett Johansson.