Picard: "Just Like Other Sci-Fi"

[fireproof78]

And I don't count the TNG films. So much of TNG was changed to make it appealing to mainstream movie audiences. The Borg suddenly had a big bad and was made to mimick James Cameron's Aliens? The Federation telling Picard, stand down, and he's like f-that, everyone, follow my lead. The way it played out in under a minute was typical cliched action-film. Last Action Hero in silliness.

You might want to fix your quote tags.

Beyond that, even if you don't count the TNG films they are still fair game for the writers to inform them about Picard. Picard has a rebellious streak-he alludes to it in "Tapestry" and has that artificial heart to prove it.

 

[The Old Mixer]

He doesn't. Picard says to Rios that 'he is not in the habit of consulting lawyers before I do what needs to be done' I think this is what @Thomas Elliot is referring to.

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And there's a big difference between that and saying that he's not one to go by the book.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

People can change but it seems some of his dialogue and actions are just to make him look "cool" at the expense of the story.

How? Your making a really generalist statement so provide examples to support your claim. Picards dialogue changed over the course of TNG as well. He went from sounding stiff and militaristic is the first 2 seasons, to a much more relaxed and thoughtful way of speaking in later seasons

And I don't count the TNG films. So much of TNG was changed to make it appealing to mainstream movie audiences. The Borg suddenly had a big bad and was made to mimick James Cameron's Aliens? The Federation telling Picard, stand down, and he's like f-that, everyone, follow my lead. The way it played out in under a minute was typical cliched action-film. Last Action Hero in silliness.

Whether you 'count them' or not is irrelevant. The point is that we've seen changes in Picards personality before. I mean we saw his personality change in TNG. He goes from being a dour stick in the mud during season 1 who hates kids and doesn't make personal attachments to his crew to a guy who plays poker with his crew mates and sees them as family. You might not like those changes, but the character does change because that is what people do in real life.

 

[Lord Garth]

Through five episodes, I have been reading a lot of the same complaints about Picard, that it is too negative, too much like a lot of current sci-fi that is negative for the sake of being negative, that this was "not their Trek." One person I engaged with said Picard has been portrayed as an old hobbling man, struggling to stay relevant.

Frankly, its becoming frustrating to read. These are the same people that continue to dump on Discovery for pretty much the same thing. Kurtzman and others have "hijacked" Trek to make their own show. And oh my goodness, they're using lens flares!

I for one have loved seeing the flawed characters of Picard, including Picard himself. It is more interesting to watch them and have their personal demons haunt them instead of getting over it in the span of an episode. This has been one of the most interesting casts we've had in Star Trek as a whole since DS9. Would you rather watch Neelix and Harry Kim? Or Mayweather and Hoshi?

Another thought is that the Federation couldn't be evil. I don't like them being evil, but not because they shouldn't be, but because it has been done to death. Section 31 has been a part of three series and I really hope they abandon the idea for a Section 31 series. And how many crazy admirals have we seen doing things under the table? It is a collection of hundreds of species and while they all can be together in an ideal of doing good in the universe, the idea that everyone is going to agree all the time is bad writing and handcuffs any drama.

We are seeing that Starfleet's decision to pull back, after sticking their collective noses in so much, has begun to create a power vacuum of sorts. Places like Free Cloud existed in the Star Trek universe, but were never going to be recognized on cable TV like they are on CBS All Access.

People are also worried that we are going to get a junk ending to this first season because we need to wrap up this storyline. Are people expecting Picard season two to be a completely new storyline with him getting a starship and it will be just like TNG? I don't think we'll have an end to this storyline, even if Picard does find Soji, for a while. It will just keep growing and moving forward.

That's my rant. I've had issues with the writing (mainly Narek's sister and Commodore Oh), but I am not going to hate Picard for the simple reason that it is moody.

I just peaked into this thread for the first time. I'm glad Discovery came out two years ago. Because I've had that experience, I was prepared for the onslaught by gatekeepers and neo-purists when it came to Picard.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

How? Your making a really generalist statement so provide examples to support your claim. Picards dialogue changed over the course of TNG as well. He went from sounding stiff and militaristic is the first 2 seasons, to a much more relaxed and thoughtful way of speaking in later seasons.

The "Romulans Only" sign and Picard's treatment of it and purposely escalating the situation, for example.

Whether you 'count them' or not is irrelevant. The point is that we've seen changes in Picards personality before. I mean we saw his personality change in TNG. He goes from being a dour stick in the mud during season 1 who hates kids and doesn't make personal attachments to his crew to a guy who plays poker with his crew mates and sees them as family. You might not like those changes, but the character does change because that is what people do in real life.

That's a good point about me "counting them which I'll get to in a minute.
I will say for right now that I think most of the changes for Picard in TNG were more natural.

Beyond that, even if you don't count the TNG films they are still fair game for the writers to inform them about Picard. Picard has a rebellious streak-he alludes to it in "Tapestry" and has that artificial heart to prove it.

About not counting them, yes, it's a bit hard to argue that he's out of character when he became more of an action hero for the films, which I believe was partially motivated by request of Patrick Stewart.

However, I think an argument is to be made for ignoring some parts of canon that don't work well. Take another franchise like Star Wars for example. Lucas retconned in "midichlorians" as part of the Force. Most fans dislike it and by the time Disney gets it, they completely ignore it. I think most would agree it's for the best.

"Tapestry" is an interesting one. I was kind of surprised back then to see Picard was this risk taking womanizer as a young man. And by starting a fight he learned to take risks? It sounds more like it would have made him wiser to NOT take stupid risks.
But okay, Picard was a risk taker in his youth, by going along with a revenge scheme over losing a game of space pool, getting into a fight over pride, and getting stabbed in the heart. Well, that was way back then because by the time of him being Captain he came across as much more restrained, thoughtful and by-the-book, most of the time, and I thought he considered by fans in general to be more of the anti-Kirk.
So he was rebellious as a young cadet, restrained as a Captain in TNG, then more like Kirk in the films, and by the time he's 90, he's getting people killed because he started problems with the "Romulans Only" sign.

His change in First Contact didn't seem natural, it seemed retconned in order to fit the idea of what a typical sci-fi/action film should be. Just like Data saying "oh shiiiiiiiit" when previously we never heard anyone say "shit" in TNG, no matter how crazy the situation. It felt more like, "oh, this is a big time movie, so this is the obligatory comedic moment."

 

[Agony_Boothb]

The "Romulans Only" sign and Picard's treatment of it and purposely escalating the situation, for example.

He had to get the Romulans attention. The entire settlement had been blatantly ignoring him. I don't think Picard foresaw Elnor's intervention or that he would kill someone. Elnor's actions are his own and Picard can't be blamed for them. Picard was pretty pissed at Elnor as well, it's not like he said 'thanks bro' gave Elnor a fistbump and went to bed.

"Tapestry" is an interesting one. I was kind of surprised back then to see Picard was this risk taking womanizer as a young man. And by starting a fight he learned to take risks? It sounds more like it would have made him wiser to NOT take stupid risks.
But okay, Picard was a risk taker in his youth, by going along with a revenge scheme over losing a game of space pool, getting into a fight over pride, and getting stabbed in the heart. Well, that was way back then because by the time of him being Captain he came across as much more restrained, thoughtful and by-the-book, most of the time, and I thought he considered by fans in general to be more of the anti-Kirk.
So he was rebellious as a young cadet, restrained as a Captain in TNG, then more like Kirk in the films, and by the time he's 90, he's getting people killed because he started problems with the "Romulans Only" sign.

The whole point of Tapestry was to show Picard that he had never stopped being that risk taker. It was the whole reason he was the Captain of the Federation Flagship. I think he was more of a 'philospher-captain' but he was still one to take risks, and he also didn't follow orders blindly as evidenced by the amount of times he argued with Admiralty.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

Does no one remember Jean-Luc's little bridge speech in "A Matter Of Time"?

"To try or not to try, to take a risk or to play it safe. Your arguments have reminded me how precious the right to choose is. And because I've never been one to play it safe, I choose to try."

He definitely has a rogue/rebel side that would have come out a lot more forcefully if he hadn't been a Starfleet officer - it's just that people choose to ignore all this because pop culture's interpretation has somehow made them think Jean-Luc is a by-the-book diplomat who gets offended by the slightest idea of not playing by the rules.

I will admit that he does play things by the book when there is a higher purpose need for it (such as there was in "The Wounded" when he refused to follow Maxwell along - because he was there to preserve the peace between the Federation and Cardassia), but otherwise... nah. I mean we're talking about the guy who takes his ship into the Neutral Zone AND close to the Romulan side of it because his friend said the Iconian homeworld MIGHT be there. Or the dude who didn't give a damn about "inconveniencing a few squabbling delegates" (direct quote) whose negotiations he was supposed to arbitrate and instead took his ship on a tour and followed a series of breadcrumb clues his old mentor left behind because he wanted to know what was up with that.

In short: Jean-Luc is a risk taker - he just usually acts calm and rational around it, making himself look like an innocent cinnamon roll, but he's actually a cinnamon roll that bites into YOU first if you're not careful.

He wouldn't have been the captain of the Federation's flagship if he hadn't been the risk taker that he is. As "Tapestry" wonderfully demonstrates.

And now that he's no longer bound by Starfleet AND older AND less in control of his emotions... yup, rebel!Jean-Luc galore.

 

[fireproof78]

So he was rebellious as a young cadet, restrained as a Captain in TNG, then more like Kirk in the films, and by the time he's 90, he's getting people killed because he started problems with the "Romulans Only" sign.

He didn't "get people killed." He's not a captain nor he is responsible for how Elnor intervened.

And he isn't always restrained as a captain. He was, after all, the captain selected for the mission to infiltrate the Cardassians. I think he is more contemplative as a captain, but that rebelliousness never altogether left.

Which brings me to:

His change in First Contact didn't seem natural, it seemed retconned in order to fit the idea of what a typical sci-fi/action film should be. Just like Data saying "oh shiiiiiiiit" when previously we never heard anyone say "shit" in TNG, no matter how crazy the situation. It felt more like, "oh, this is a big time movie, so this is the obligatory comedic moment."

On this point I completely disagree. Picard is a man who prides himself on a measure of control. But, then he is put face to face with his most traumatizing event. He becomes irrational, angry, and driven by revenge. All of that is consistent with trauma. Yes, of course, it is amped up in a film, rather than an episode. But, I think Picard coming face to face with one his most traumatizing events would bring out some intense emotions.

I think that Picard became more in touch with his rebellious side as he grew older.

 

[Armus]

His change in First Contact didn't seem natural, it seemed retconned in order to fit the idea of what a typical sci-fi/action film should be. Just like Data saying "oh shiiiiiiiit" when previously we never heard anyone say "shit" in TNG, no matter how crazy the situation. It felt more like, "oh, this is a big time movie, so this is the obligatory comedic moment."

I agree with this, and I'm not the biggest fan of First Contact. I thought Picard's Captain Ahab breakdown came out 6 years too late. It was manufactured for that movie and I never bought it. Just like I never bought that it took someone from the 21st century to talk him down. Dr. Crusher and Worf shouldn't have been undermined for a film guest star. Dr. Crusher's job is to remove the Captain if she deems him unfit.

 

[fireproof78]

I thought Picard's Captain Ahab breakdown came out 6 years too late.

Disagree. But mileage will vary.

Dr. Crusher and Worf shouldn't have been undermined for a film guest star. Dr. Crusher's job is to remove the Captain if she deems him unfit.

On this point I am more likely to agree here too a point. Picard was so myopic that it took an outsider to actually shake him out of it.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Picard's Captain Ahab breakdown came out 6 years too late.

I thought the 6 years made it more believable. He was living with his trauma for six years, suppressed it for a very long time until he couldn't anymore and all that was boiling inside him for all those years came out at once

EDIT: Thinking about it...Deanna, you had ONE job!

 

[AlanC9]

I agree with this, and I'm not the biggest fan of First Contact. I thought Picard's Captain Ahab breakdown came out 6 years too late. It was manufactured for that movie and I never bought it. Just like I never bought that it took someone from the 21st century to talk him down. Dr. Crusher and Worf shouldn't have been undermined for a film guest star. Dr. Crusher's job is to remove the Captain if she deems him unfit.

How is Crusher undermined by simply not being there at the time?