Picard: "Just Like Other Sci-Fi"

[Blip]

...due to all the toxic, SJW hating, anti-feminist, right wing, professional Discovery (and now Picard) hating internet man babies holding Orville up as “real Trek”..I will NEVER watch and have never watched a single damn episode of that series.

This is an oxymoron, to say the least. Most of those who are irked by Picard appear to be TNG fans, a show that was intended to be the very antithesis of the traits you describe -- and the very show which Orville often emulates.

People really need to stop throwing around these idiotic, baseless ad hominems. Just because someone dislikes the craptastic writing or lazy production design of Discovery (moreso than Picard, AFAIC), doesn't make them some kind of rabid, alt-right, racist/sexist white scumbag. And yes, I'm speaking as a liberal, feminist, anti-racist here - why the fuck else would I be a fan of Trek??

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

It's pretty much for people that hate Star Trek. I found most of the people that like these new shows hated Star Trek of old.

Wait, one group of haters tells me I like PIC just because it's "pure nostalgia" (another term for the Bingo card), now another tells me I don't like the ST of old... Now I'm confused.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Wait, one group of haters tells me I like PIC just because it's "pure nostalgia" (another term for the Bingo card), now another tells me I don't like the ST of old... Now I'm confused.

So are they.

 

[picardjean-luc]

I've reached the point where I automatically translate "It's not like Star Trek" to "It's not like TNG," mostly because Voyager and Enterprise kept doing increasingly more watered down versions of TNG for 11 more seasons. We've already got 18 seasons of TNG, that's more than enough for me, thank you very much.

If only they were braver with Voyager and didn't roll back all the Maquis-Starfleet conflict, scarce resources, damage to the ship sticking etc. ideas in favor of more TNG-lite stories, then we wouldn't be in all this mess now where some people mistake Berman & Co. playing it safe for Star Trek being a formula or framework for storytelling as opposed to a franchise/setting with a large variety of stories to tell.

Very good point. I also think 'Voyager' was into something when they started the Maquis-Starfleet crew conflict plot but then it was all gone away and we got a TNG-mixed with 'First Contact' 2.0 Borg Queen vs Janeway plot for much of its run (notwithstanding the fact I enjoy Seven as a regular VOY character).

What do you think about DS9 then? Do you see it as a precursor to 'DSC' and 'PIC' - given its portrayal for a more calculating real-politique Federation, characters like Sisko doing things for the Federation survival, and not for some greater moralistic goals and a darker storyline featuring the long warfare b/w the Feds, Dominions, Cardassians, Romulans, etc?

 

[SJGardner]

Very good point. I also think 'Voyager' was into something when they started the Maquis-Starfleet crew conflict plot but then it was all gone away and we got a TNG-mixed with 'First Contact' 2.0 Borg Queen vs Janeway plot for much of its run (notwithstanding the fact I enjoy Seven as a regular VOY character).

What do you think about DS9 then? Do you see it as a precursor to 'DSC' and 'PIC' - given its portrayal for a more calculating real-politique Federation, characters like Sisko doing things for the Federation survival, and not for some greater moralistic goals and a darker storyline featuring the long warfare b/w the Feds, Dominions, Cardassians, Romulans, etc?

I do think DSC and PIC owe much to the groundwork laid by DS9 about a more in-depth examination of utopia by challenging it from outside and within and by telling stories about the places where the Federation's grasp is tenuous at best, where the civilized, urban context of Earth does not truly apply. Sisko's oft-quoted speech about the Maquis from Season 2 is one of my favorite examples of this. Discovery was more simplistic about the matter, I think, with the characters reaffirming their Federation values in the face of Mirror Universe characters trying to fight the Klingon war their way, but Picard seems to be telling a more nuanced story where he's almost like a Fisher King whose giving up and withdrawal from the galaxy mirrors a Federation that has wavered due to the crises and wars it has suffered in the 2360s-70s.

At any rate, I think the two new shows expand upon DS9 which has merely shown us the cracks in the Federation, and they seem to be telling a message that utopia is not to be taken for granted, and one will have to fight to preserve it, because bad things might creep through those cracks if we sit on our laurels.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Through five episodes, I have been reading a lot of the same complaints about Picard, that it is too negative, too much like a lot of current sci-fi that is negative for the sake of being negative, that this was "not their Trek."

I think this is what bothers me most, not so much that it's not "my Trek."
A lot of what I'm seeing in Picard feels like other well-known sci-fi out there, and the themes that they're engaging in, so far, are very common in grittier sci-fi. If it was doing something different from TNG AND other mainstream sci-fi, then I might be more engaged with the show.

I for one have loved seeing the flawed characters of Picard, including Picard himself.

I don't mind flawed characters but when they act out-of-character it comes across as forced.

It is more interesting to watch them and have their personal demons haunt them instead of getting over it in the span of an episode.

This was definitely a flaw of TNG in hindsight. But it was a trade off for being able to tell a completely unique story each week without being bogged down in too much continuity. Back then every episode might be the first episode for someone out there. Now everyone binge watches a new show from start to finish. Usually.

This has been one of the most interesting casts we've had in Star Trek as a whole since DS9. Would you rather watch Neelix and Harry Kim? Or Mayweather and Hoshi?

Why does it have to be either/or? It's a false dilemma. You're using one of the better Star Trek shows against one of the least liked ones. Is anyone really clamoring for more Voyager? Most people are comparing PIC to TNG and TOS, not VOY.

It is a collection of hundreds of species and while they all can be together in an ideal of doing good in the universe, the idea that everyone is going to agree all the time is bad writing and handcuffs any drama.

That's the point of the Federation by the time of TNG through the lens of speculative fiction. The Federation is supposed to represent a future ideal we're supposed to aspire to, whereas exploration of the further reaches of space is where the conflict lies, and how members of Starfleet with Federation values deal with it.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I don't mind flawed characters but when they act out-of-character it comes across as forced.

How is Picard acting out of character?

That's the point of the Federation by the time of TNG through the lens of speculative fiction. The Federation is supposed to represent a future ideal we're supposed to aspire to, whereas exploration of the further reaches of space is where the conflict lies, and how members of Starfleet with Federation values deal with it.

TNG spent most of the series showing the emperor had no clothes from the first episode so far as that Federation utopia goes.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

How is Picard acting out of character?

One point he says to Rios, that he's not one to follow orders or go by the book. TNG seemed to be all about Picard following adhering to the rules. Sure, he might bend them once in a while, but for the most part, his stickler for following protocol was what set him apart from Kirk, and made him more of a diplomatic type character. But this line in Picard seems to be put there just so he can come across as the cliched, rebellious American action hero.

The other one was when he went to another culture, took down the "Romulans Only" sign, and then stepped on it. I can't see TNG Picard or old Picard doing this. It's his fault that guy lost his head.

TNG spent most of the series showing the emperor had no clothes from the first episode so far as that Federation utopia goes.

That's now how I remember it. I'll have to rewatch it, but it seemed that we got several episodes where Picard is explaining to Earthlings from the past or other people, how they've evolved from their past.
I think it was towards the end of the series that we saw how the Federation wasn't so perfect in how it dealt with Cardassia, Bajor, and the Maquis. And that's fine, but mostly the show seemed to be about exploration and other alien cultures.

 

[The Old Mixer]

One point he says to Rios, that he's not one to follow orders or go by the book.

Episode and scene?

 

[fireproof78]

But this line in Picard seems to be put there just so he can come across as the cliched, rebellious American action hero.

Two things. One, that doesn't come across as rebellious action hero, unless we are putting Kirk in that role, and Spock too.

Two, people change in 20 years. I know, it's weird.

That's now how I remember it. I'll have to rewatch it, but it seemed that we got several episodes where Picard is explaining to Earthlings from the past or other people, how they've evolved from their past.
I think it was towards the end of the series that we saw how the Federation wasn't so perfect in how it dealt with Cardassia, Bajor, and the Maquis. And that's fine, but mostly the show seemed to be about exploration and other alien cultures.

Picard's statements and the reality were often too different things. You have episodes like "The Drumhead" where Starfleet becomes very paranoid that it suspects innocent crewmembers, and uses a Betazoid as part of interrogations. Tasha Yar talks about living on a colony where rape and murder are common place. We have characters like Okona who live out on the fringes of Federation society.

TNG did an interesting job of making the Federation a very dynamic place, and not always as evolved as Picard regarded it.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Two things. One, that doesn't come across as rebellious action hero, unless we are putting Kirk in that role, and Spock too.

It does when you combine it with him pulling a Bruce Lee stunt and taking down a "Romulans Only" sign and walking all over it.

Two, people change in 20 years. I know, it's weird.

Yeah because people are known to get more rebellious when becoming senior citizens.

Picard's statements and the reality were often too different things. You have episodes like "The Drumhead" where Starfleet becomes very paranoid that it suspects innocent crewmembers, and uses a Betazoid as part of interrogations.

One episode.

Tasha Yar talks about living on a colony where rape and murder are common place.

I vaguely remember that. So the colony was within the Federation and they were rape gangs? Maybe that was an example of early TNG trying to find their footing. I mean, the Klingons were shown as being a part of the Federation, then later it's changed to just being allies. Somehow Data succumbs to pheromones and gets intoxicated and has sex. I can't see that happening in Season 4.

We have characters like Okona who live out on the fringes of Federation society.

Don't even know who that is. I'll rewatch that episode.

TNG did an interesting job of making the Federation a very dynamic place, and not always as evolved as Picard regarded it.

I think the Federation had it's issues here and there. But for the most part society seemed to be evolved for the better. If it's how it's described in the first episode of PICARD then it seems like they're should have been WAY more conflict within the Federation in TNG. They want to help the Romulans and all these planets are going to pull out of the Federation? Well damn, anytime a big decision has to be made Federations plants could pull that stunt.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

One point he says to Rios, that he's not one to follow orders or go by the book.

He literally quit in Insurrection because he didn't agree with the orders he was given. In TNG Picard frequently challenges authority. He butts heads with the Admiralty a lot and often questions their decisions. Old Picard cared too much about his career to be openly subordinate but things have changed. The picard we we're seeing in STP is not supposed to be the same man we saw during seven seasons of TNG. That is the whole point of the show. He's doing what any real person with 30 years of experiences does, growing and changing. Expecting Picard to be this static unchanging character is ludicrous.

 

[fireproof78]

It does when you combine it with him pulling a Bruce Lee stunt and taking down a "Romulans Only" sign and walking all over it.

"Saddle up. Lock and load." It's always been there in Picard.

Yeah because people are known to get more rebellious when becoming senior citizens.

I have met several who, in their own words, "Don't give a shit anymore." So, yes.

One episode.

Again, we are talking about the dynamics of this society. If you want me to list out every single episode of the cracks in the Federation then I'll be a while.

I vaguely remember that. So the colony was within the Federation and they were rape gangs? Maybe that was an example of early TNG trying to find their footing. I mean, the Klingons were shown as being a part of the Federation, then later it's changed to just being allies. Somehow Data succumbs to pheromones and gets intoxicated and has sex. I can't see that happening in Season 4.

So, we should ignore the more unpleasant parts? O_o

I think the Federation had it's issues here and there. But for the most part society seemed to be evolved for the better. If it's how it's described in the first episode of PICARD then it seems like they're should have been WAY more conflict within the Federation in TNG. They want to help the Romulans and all these planets are going to pull out of the Federation? Well damn, anytime a big decision has to be made Federations plants could pull that stunt.

But, that ignores pretty much the constant conflict the Federation had experienced prior to the events of Picard. I don't think it was always that conflicted. I think that the multiple wars strained relationships though.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Can anyone tell me when/where Picard actually says that?

 

[fireproof78]

Can anyone tell me when/where Picard actually says that?

You want facts? O_O

 

[Thomas Elliot]

He literally quit in Insurrection because he didn't agree with the orders he was given. In TNG Picard frequently challenges authority. He butts heads with the Admiralty a lot and often questions their decisions. Old Picard cared too much about his career to be openly subordinate but things have changed. The picard we we're seeing in STP is not supposed to be the same man we saw during seven seasons of TNG. That is the whole point of the show. He's doing what any real person with 30 years of experiences does, growing and changing. Expecting Picard to be this static unchanging character is ludicrous.

People can change but it seems some of his dialogue and actions are just to make him look "cool" at the expense of the story.
And I don't count the TNG films. So much of TNG was changed to make it appealing to mainstream movie audiences. The Borg suddenly had a big bad and was made to mimick James Cameron's Aliens? The Federation telling Picard, stand down, and he's like f-that, everyone, follow my lead. The way it played out in under a minute was typical cliched action-film. Last Action Hero in silliness.

"Saddle up. Lock and load." It's always been there in Picard.

And that was an awful line. Did he say it though? I thought that was Data. Awful either way, and a very dated action film line, even back then.

I have met several who, in their own words, "Don't give a shit anymore." So, yes.

I suppose, but considering that he instigated that Romulan sword fight, but he almost dies racing up some stairs, it seems very uncharacteristic of the sensitive man of today's Picard. Pick one and stick with it.

So, we should ignore the more unpleasant parts? O_o

That's a good point. There's problems I had with rewatching TNG even prior to PICARD. Like inconsistencies for example.

But, that ignores pretty much the constant conflict the Federation had experienced prior to the events of Picard. I don't think it was always that conflicted. I think that the multiple wars strained relationships though.

Maybe I'm misremembering. From what I do remember it seems like there was a shifting tone in TNG. One minute they're super enlightened, the next minute their talking trash about their fellow Starfleet officers.
I mean, in an era where they meet all kinds of strange creatures and cultures, are they really going to be giving Barcaly crap? I get the point of his character, but rewatching it seemed a little off.
I don't think the dynamics of the Federation were fully formed ideas when they were writing TNG. It was something in the background, the politics I mean, and depending on the need for the story, it was either peaceful and enlightened or very comparable to our current political climate.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Can anyone tell me when/where Picard actually says that?

He doesn't. Picard says to Rios that 'he is not in the habit of consulting lawyers before I do what needs to be done' I think this is what @Thomas Elliot is referring to.

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[Thomas Elliot]

Can anyone tell me when/where Picard actually says that?

I'll try to find out which episode it's in but I'll have to rewatch later to find out. No one else remembers that exchange or something very similar to it? I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine the whole thing.

 

[The Old Mixer]

You want facts? O_O

 

[Thomas Elliot]

He doesn't. Picard says to Rios that 'he is not in the habit of consulting lawyers before I do what needs to be done' I think this is what @Thomas Elliot is referring to.

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Ah okay, thanks. Yeah, that's different from what I was claiming. It still gives me the same general impression of, "I just do what I want because I'm right" but that's probably my personal bias than something that's accepted as a total cliche. Picard doesn't consult lawyers but it seems like he constantly goes back to Federation guidelines and mulls over the pros and cons before engaging in action, at least in TNG.