Spoilers Jurati in episode 5 & which side is Narek on?

[garakvsneelix]

I have no idea what Jurati could have heard that would explain her behaviour. She didn't just killed Maddox with a phaser, but used a method, where he also suffered a bit before he was finally dead. And this happened in the same universe, where utopia seemed to become possible at the ages of TNG. So, in my eyes, PIC stands and falls with the explanation of the mystery. They really can create a 'darker way' of the Trek Universe, no problem, but they need a very good reason for it.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I'm not buying that Narek has "developed feelings" for Soji. Whose side is he on? His own. For whom is he working? Now that's a good question. He's not necessarily working only for his sister although he's trying to stay on her good side because today is not a good day to die for the Romulan.

He could be working for any or all of the three groups involved.

I'm hoping this isn't a Borg origins story or that the Romulans or Vulcans are part synth. Because I will throw something heavy at my TV if that is the case and given the situation in China at the moment, replacing it would take too long.

P.S. Also - NO JANEWAY. It's a bit of a stretch to have Seven show up on a Picard show, but I can live with that. Just.

If anything happens to Seven, Janeway will appear to destroy the timeline. Soji is just the prophecy.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Fascinating thanks for further summarising the other threads. This information cannot be gleaned from canon and Picard episodes alone, but must’ve come from leaks.

I have to agree that it’s all a bit too barmy which makes it all the more likely to be what Kurtzman & Chabon have in mind.

It’s plausible that the Borg cube is a trap and a decent plot twist. But, it would mean that Ramdah and the other Romulans did not cause the collapse of the submatrix upon being assimilated, and therefore the Zhat Vash secret about Seb-Cheneb isn’t deadly to the Borg as a kind of virus (which was a theory I was proposing).

I don’t buy that Jurati killed Maddox because of the Mars synth attack, because that’s in the past and he wasn’t responsible (even if his synths were key). If she were punishing him that would put her in a vindictive/judgemental frame of mind, but she was emotionally conflicted when killing him. Her emotional state is better explained if she's been shown something in the future that she can stop...e.g. the seb-cheneb destroyer, and her goal is to ensure it doesn’t happen by killing everyone involved (Terminator-style) including Soji, and herself. If correct, then she will either commit suicide at some point or get killed trying to murder Soji.

What I don’t understand is how she’s going to get away with Maddox’s murder…as there’s no way to cover it up, especially with the EMH as a witness.

The Romulans from the Shaenor were mentally traumatised by their assimilation, so why isn’t Narek mentally damaged like the others? Even if he has fewer implants, surely it’s not the implants that cause it but rather the process itself?

I think the plot twist is going to be that Narek really is falling for Soji, thus he will aid in her escape by trying to activate her (something we kind of glimpsed in the preview at the end of episode 5), that will gain the trust of Picard and a place in his crew.

This would create an interesting sibling battle with his sister that could produce all sorts of future teasers based on trust.

I think the Romulan origin theory with them being created by Vulcans has just too many holes to be credible. Only Kurtzman could dream up nonsense like this.

Passing DNA and other tests is plausible, but they would come up as anomalous in transporter patterns especially with close scrutiny of Federation enemies. And I don’t buy the story of how Julianna Tainer/Soong managed to avoid detection in transporters, because a transporter can surely only materialise what it can ‘see’/detect….if the synthetic parts are hidden/undetectable, then the transporter will surely be unable to rematerialise them - it can’t recreate things it can’t detect.

The Vulcan Katra surely stops any possibly that the Vulcans have forgotten they built the Romulan synths, because whole point of Katra is so the Vulcans can pass on their knowledge and experiences.

If this is really what Kurtzman is going for then it defies logic unless you ignore canon, at which it stops being Trek.

I've been puzzling over this as well, but it just makes my head hurt too much. I think Kurtzman purposefully wants to hide the timeline in case it brings up any inconsistencies in his story.

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[Tarek71]

It’s plausible that the Borg cube is a trap and a decent plot twist. But, it would mean that Ramdah and the other Romulans did not cause the collapse of the submatrix upon being assimilated, and therefore the Zhat Vash secret about Seb-Cheneb isn’t deadly to the Borg as a kind of virus (which was a theory I was proposing).

I think the collapse was deliberate sabotage by the Borg. Romulans have been assimilated in the past without an issue. Narek I believe is the real destroyer. But what the (Vulcan) Zhat Vash dont know is that they are being played by the Borg, and that their agent, Narek, is now an agent of the Queen. How they keep him assimilated without implants is not clear. Psychological conditioning? He is a willing participant? Queen made him an offer to be her counterpart? Some would take that deal.

 

[eschaton]

I think the collapse was deliberate sabotage by the Borg. Romulans have been assimilated in the past without an issue. Narek I believe is the real destroyer. But what the (Vulcan) Zhat Vash dont know is that they are being played by the Borg, and that their agent, Narek, is now an agent of the Queen. How they keep him assimilated without implants is not clear. Psychological conditioning? He is a willing participant? Queen made him an offer to be her counterpart? Some would take that deal.

That's interesting. Keep in mind though that we know Narek is almost certainly going to end up on La Sirena based upon comments prior to release about how he and Elnor do not get along well with one another once they start interacting. So any reveal like that is only going to come along near the end of the season.

 

[Tarek71]

I don’t buy that Jurati killed Maddox because of the Mars synth attack, because that’s in the past and he wasn’t responsible (even if his synths were key). If she were punishing him that would put her in a vindictive/judgemental frame of mind, but she was emotionally conflicted when killing him. Her emotional state is better explained if she's been shown something in the future that she can stop...e.g. the seb-cheneb destroyer, and her goal is to ensure it doesn’t happen by killing everyone involved (Terminator-style) including Soji, and herself. If correct, then she will either commit suicide at some point or get killed trying to murder Soji.

What I don’t understand is how she’s going to get away with Maddox’s murder…as there’s no way to cover it up, especially with the EMH as a witness.

Jurati could be anything. A synth? A sleeper agent? Or she could be psychopath for all we know. We just met her and know nothing about her. I think when she said she was SHOWN something, that it refers to the past. You cannot "show" people the future without time travel or some super power for precognition. That's what made me think it is the past, and not the future. She could have been led to believe that he deliberately caused an immense number of deaths, even if he didnt. Ie the synths did this on purpose because of how he programmed them. Im sure there is more to the Jurati story in any case.

 

[Tarek71]

The Romulans from the Shaenor were mentally traumatised by their assimilation, so why isn’t Narek mentally damaged like the others? Even if he has fewer implants, surely it’s not the implants that cause it but rather the process itself?

I think the plot twist is going to be that Narek really is falling for Soji, thus he will aid in her escape by trying to activate her (something we kind of glimpsed in the preview at the end of episode 5), that will gain the trust of Picard and a place in his crew.

This would create an interesting sibling battle with his sister that could produce all sorts of future teasers based on trust.

I think the Romulan origin theory with them being created by Vulcans has just too many holes to be credible. Only Kurtzman could dream up nonsense like this.

Passing DNA and other tests is plausible, but they would come up as anomalous in transporter patterns especially with close scrutiny of Federation enemies. And I don’t buy the story of how Julianna Tainer/Soong managed to avoid detection in transporters, because a transporter can surely only materialise what it can ‘see’/detect….if the synthetic parts are hidden/undetectable, then the transporter will surely be unable to rematerialise them - it can’t recreate things it can’t detect.

The Vulcan Katra surely stops any possibly that the Vulcans have forgotten they built the Romulan synths, because whole point of Katra is so the Vulcans can pass on their knowledge and experiences.

If this is really what Kurtzman is going for then it defies logic unless you ignore canon, at which it stops being Trek.

I am not a fan of the Romulans are synths story line, but I think that is what they will establish. I am not sure the Vulcans "forgot" it. It's possible that most Vulcans at the time didnt know it either. Only some knew.

The "we dont know how to make Soong androids" or similarly advanced AI, always struck me as silly. And not just because the current rate of AI development makes this unlikely. The replicator could make an endless supply of them. It wouldnt have occured to Maddox, Starfleet R&D, Starfleet Intelligence or Sect 31 to just scan of him and feed that into a replicator? The transporter did it every time he beamed somewhere.

The Narek-Soji relationship is being set up as a tragic, the fault in their stars, love story. His feelings may be real, but I suspect he (like all the Borg, and alot of the tech at the reclamation site) has an activation code or signal that will kick in when the Borg think it's time to end the charade. And then someone, possibly Soji, will have to destroy him.