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Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x05 - "Stardust City Rag"

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30 new pages again in just 24 h :ack:

I'm really glad the show didn't cast him. I don't care how many times he now claims "I didn't mean it when I sided with Spacey, I didn't have enough information at the time" (like, dude, the info about what Spacey is like was out there, had been out there for many years, and the way he tried to slam Anthony Rapp down for speaking up REALLY didn't set well with me AT ALL).
Is there a good source to read what exactly he wrote or said, with context?

It's fine if it's genuinely motivated by the story. I liked it when they used the gore to show the transwarp malfunction in DIS episode 3 - that's how something like that should look like. This level of violence is appropriate when the story is actually about such violence. But I hate this level of vileness to be used as a cold opening just to grab attention.
I don't know...Star Trek has had some weird scenes...
Ugh, I can't stand this scene to this day!
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It also makes Trek less accessible for kids. Many of us, including myself, came to Trek as a kid. If this stuff were showing during my childhood, I wouldn't have watched it.
Conspiracy was my first Trek episode, and I was 7 or 8. If they hadn't cut that scene, I wouldn't have become a fan that day and would've avoided Trek for years...
Gore and Borg go well together, though.

Is it the first time they showed that Borg implants are considered so valuable? Or is it something that they already established in past series/movies?
maybe. it was Voyager, though, so I can't remember. Was the problem solved by reversing the polarity of the deflector dish, a nebula and Janeway's caffeine addiction?
*why* are people like Seven's lover so interested in Borg implants? for the tech or for trophies?
The Ferengi even went through some insane geodesic-fold-on-a-red-giant-technotrouble (easily topping any deflector polarity reversals) to get her nanoprobes XD

but which Soong did Maddox and Agnes work with? Can't be Dr Soong... I'm still thinking Lore, since we were only told he was disassembled, and even if so, where would the bits be sent...? The Daystrom Institute perhaps? Or is there just a human Soong grandkid somewhere?
Did Paris work with Armstrong and Cochrane? Did Stamets work with Musk? ;)

She doesn't want to breathe his second-hand smoke.
And she doesn't wanna smell like a smoker when she meets her son to tell him she's clean! :D

I think the reaction by some to Maddox being recast was WAY over-the-top. Even for here.
At this point, it looks like they actually want to be outraged and find reasons to not like the show. This is show-business. Recasting happens. It's been going on for 100 years.
It only saddens me cause I live and work close to him and would wanna talk to him about it :/

As a side note...
did anyone else notice the E-D bridge noises when Rios and Picard were talking about the cube?
the distinct, repetitive booping
I noticed it in the previous episode as well, when Raffi was working on something at her station

We also learn that Picard’s acting skills are cringeworthy.
He said he's not much of an actor when Bev wanted him to act in her play on TNG

On the soundtrack for "The Inner light", the Ressikan flute music is called "Lullaby #1". I wonder where the music is heard in the episode.
Maybe someone realized the main theme is Batai's melody XD

I recall reading Brian Brophy was surprised when a fan told him about Bruce Maddox being in Picard (not a "No comment" kind of thing). Makes me think he wasn't even approached.
Yes, his response seems to have been genuine. Was kinda sad to see him feeling left out, I was hoping he's just pretending :/

I'm just saying someone the producers HATED was at least offered the role again after bad blood had developed. Brophy was never reported to be at odds with anyone at the franchise.
Who did they hate and still offer something?

I physically gagged. He’s not just a creepy old guy fetishizing a young woman. He’s her mentor. It had no impact on the later drama when she killed him. It was just pointlessly gross, like graphically pulling that kid’s eye out or having 7 shooting him while hugging. Everything is extreme on this show and to no real purpose.
All consenting adults have the right to fall in love and act on their emotions. "What makes you think you can dictate how people love each other?" - Soren, The Outcast

The extremely contrived coincidence of Seven just happening to show up at the time she'd be the perfect bargaining chip for Maddox.
You would prefer her to show up for no reason and disappear again with no further contribution? Imagine the outrage here XD

The fact that Picard had Zhat Vash bodies (i.e. the one Agnes killed) and didn't have anyone tell an authority (Clancy, or someone) "Hey, here's proof of my so called conspiracy theories".
The last one about Picard not telling about the last Zhat Vash attack and the bodies is a big deal. In the real world anyone would be saying, "Why didn't you give us this proof?" Keep in mind if Picard had done this, Maddox would likely still be alive.
Since the authorities covered up the previous attacks, he can't trust them. They would've erased that evidence as well.

The only thing that felt uneven was some bits of Stewart's performance - but overall it was solid.
As the sinistairrre frenchman? That's cause he's acting the part of a bad actor having to act. ;)

This episode featured three brutal murders and two of them were committed by our heroes.
How did you feel about Picard and Riker murdering Remmick, Picard murdering Soran and the Borg queen, Sisko murdering Dukat, Janeway murdering the Borg queen, Picard murdering Shinzon? :p
 
Why not launch it for the other captains too? Captain coupling isn't something that I think about too often, so I'll leave it to someone else to point out which captain had the most diverse love interests, but even Pike was tempted by a green woman in the pilot, and Kirk got flirty with a number of different races, including having the first interracial kiss (big for its time). Geordi presumably married a white woman and Worf a white Trill. The thing that stands out for Sisko and Jake is that although we don't know how many black aliens there are in the universe, there are fewer black actresses and it strikes me as icky having to pair them with black actresses if the concern is something as odious as miscegenation. It wouldn't be a problem for me if Jennifer or Cassidy or Fenna or Korena or Leanne or Kesha or maybe others too were black, or most if most of them were, but that all of them were? And that in the cases of Korena and Kesha, they were maybe the only black Bajorans with speaking parts? It doesn't seem right.


What got me wondering about this whole train of thought was that it seemed like all three characters were the identical or near identical color. It isn't that the actors were of the same or different racial backgrounds, and I appreciated his last name being Hwang and that Pel was Romulan (and further I appreciate the diversity of Romulans in this series in their different races and accents), but that the makeup department either didn't spring for different shades of makeup, or if someone chose to make their marriage more 'palatable' by suggesting hey they're of the same kind, well, that didn't sit right with me.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it and it was complete chance that all three actors were very similar in color, or that the makeup department is just cheap and actors of other races too are mis-shaded here and there. But I'm Greek and am slightly more beige than say a Frenchman who might me slightly darker than say a Norwegian, and we'd all need different makeup. At least if we're in more significant speaking roles.

Thanks for replying to my reply and expounding on your thoughts. Off the top of my head, the love interests of the captains in general were not that diverse.

If you look at Pike, he might have been enticed by an Orion 'animal woman' (which is problematic in and of itself), while being tempted by a Talosian fantasy of him being a slave trader basically. However, it was just Vina in green paint and that's what I think was also part of the attraction. The Talosians also gave him the options of Number One and Yeoman Colt.

For Kirk, I could be wrong here, but every non-white woman he was involved with on TOS was due to him not being in his right mind. He was being coerced or had lost his memory. Picard also had all white love interests, excepting Lily Sloane though I would be remiss to really call her a love interest. I can't remember if he even kissed Lily Sloane in First Contact. Janeway, from what I saw of the show, almost all of her romantic interests, save Chakotay (if we consider their very close friendship romantic) were white men, or white actors playing aliens. Archer is the only one that had a non-white love interest that he had been in a serious relationship with, Captain Hernandez, though that was mostly conveniently in the past, so we didn't get to see a fully fleshed out relationship there. So, Captain Sisko isn't that much out of the norm when it comes to his romantic partners, not counting his tryst with Mirror Jadzia, and that was while he was pretending to be Mirror Sisko. I doubt very much it would've happened otherwise.

I had to look up Jake, but there was one non-black (or she looks that way to me) love interest, with Mardah. When it comes to skin tones and use of makeup, I think that CBS Trek really wants to promote acceptance and diversity and I can see them not using makeup, darkening or lightening actors' skin. That can lead to some places they don't want to go, especially if not done correctly or consciously of offense enough. Having the actors in their natural hues helps promote the variety of hues of the human family. I can't see CBS Trek ever using a word like 'pink skins' to describe all of humankind like they did on Enterprise, without them using that word to mock or chide the character who utters it.

I won't discount any argument that how the Trek creators have picked love interests over the decades has not been immune to bias, from themselves, the studios, or their concerns about how far ahead they could go from the audience. So the concern about miscegenation fears could very well be a factor or the case, but that would largely be across the board with Trek. Certainly, with some of the supporting and guest characters (Harry Kim, Mayweather, Gannett Brooks, Worf, Ba'el, K'Ehleyr, Ezri, Bashir, Torres, Paris, O'Brien, Keiko, Troi, Chakotay, Seska, "Endgame" Seven of Nine, Jake, Stamets, Culber, Ash Tyler, Mirror Georgiou, Mirror Lorca, Mirror Sisko, Mirror Archer, Mirror Hoshi, Mirror Mayweather, Intendant Kira, Dahj and Soji Asha, Narek, Dahj's boyfriend Caler, assuming Raffi) we saw some racial mixing, but the Prime Universe lead characters, with the exceptions of Michael Burnham and Archer, have all mostly been partnered with love interests from their same racial group.

I was very pleased to see Sisko involved with Jennifer, Nidell,and eventually Kassidy because at the time seeing positive black romantic relationships on mainstream television, in a drama and not a comedy, was very rare. I was also okay with many of Jake's choices, though I wasn't paying that much attention to them except for Korena who I thought was very attractive. I was also happy to see Aquiel and Geordi, and it was the first time Geordi got to have the makings of a real relationship. I never bought him and Leah Brahms, but Aquiel had an opposites attract kind of thing going on, she had more edges than he did and wouldn't play by the rules like he did, so I thought there was something interesting to be had there. Before Aquiel, I would've been interested to see what would've happened if they had developed a Geordi-Sonya Gomez relationship. He also had more chemistry with Gomez than Brahms.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Mardah
 
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Finally I read all posts. Really, are people so surprised that they haven't offered the character of Maddox to a guy whose most important role in the last ten years was "Crime Scene Photographer"?
They brought back Del Arco, so I figure, why not.

And Ales didn't look like Brophy's Maddox or have his smug arrogance. May as well have been a different character.
 
Even if they suspected she was a mole, they wouldn't necessarily have seen her murder of Maddox coming. Nobody here seemed to.
Most of the forum suspected as soon as she just happened to appear at the chateau in time to shoot that Romulan in the back.

True but that is only because we were led to believe that it was a huge secret and that the Zhat Vash have no qualms at killing to keep it hidden, so we had no reason to think she was there to kill him.

Laris made it out to be some huge secret that no one but a very select few is permitted to know, even the Zhaban was sceptical although he could be in the know and was just trying to deflect.

Then all of a sudden we find out that the Commodore told Jurati who is not what I would call a reliable confidant, the only reason it could force her to keep quiet is if it is a prime directive issue, to do with time travel or most likely her work with Maddox, even then its a bit of a stretch to go from sharing cookies to offing him the way she did with no hesitation whatsoever.

There was no real need to tell Jurati, the Commodore already knows where Soji is (with Narek) and all she has gained is Jurati's help in killing him which could have been achieved far more easily in other ways without exposing the secret, they could have sent in a kill team to wipe him out and any trace he was ever there.

Its almost like the Commodore wants Picard to be involved, did she send Rizzo in after Dahj knowing that she would make a mess, exactly what kind of game is the Commodore playing.

Does knowing the secret automatically make you Zhat Vash or whatever the Federation equivalent would be, is it literally the knowing that does it, it certainly would seem so based on Jurati's actions in the episode.
 
Most of the forum suspected as soon as she just happened to appear at the chateau in time to shoot that Romulan in the back.
The "nobody here seemed to" was meant to apply only to the second part, that they wouldn't have seen her murder coming.

Does knowing the secret automatically make you Zhat Vash or whatever the Federation equivalent would be, is it literally the knowing that does it, it certainly would seem so based on Jurati's actions in the episode.
I think that Jurati feeling personally responsible for her role in Maddox's work is a major factor here. It's not necessarily a secret that would drive anyone to take such drastic measures.
 
That's what the evidence is leading me to conclude to.

Agnes Jurati was probably convinced that Maddox was one of those unstoppable dreamers, who will stop at nothing to accomplish his goals, and Oh was probably right about that, given the success of Dhaj / Soji.

Picard is a boundless idealist, it shows in his StarFleet Record and his behavior. I think Oh made a judgement call based on what she knows about him and thinks he can't be turned to her side. At that point, Picard is considered an obstacle and liability.

I would argue that there’s this big issue, it relates to artificial life, Tal Shiar and the Eight want it stopped, and Maddox was just a mad scientist on the wrong side of this. They destroyed his lab and want his twins dead also (and there is a “nest” which apparently is not the lab). He’s reinventing the a-bomb but he’s not the subject of the hunt, more collateral damage.
 
The "nobody here seemed to" was meant to apply only to the second part, that they wouldn't have seen her murder coming.


I think that Jurati feeling personally responsible for her role in Maddox's work is a major factor here. It's not necessarily a secret that would drive anyone to take such drastic measures.
Fair enough but they should have been watching her after what happened at the chateau and Maddox should not have been left alone knowing what he knows.

All of this is fine if they confront her in the next episode and it all comes out, someone has to tell Picard whats going on and plot wise it will make sense, I just get the feeling it may be glossed over which is a bit off if you ask me.

I am starting to wonder about the nature of the secret though, rather than the secret being passed on to those who pass certain tests to prove they are able to handle it, it seems that just the transfer itself is enough.

For someone like Jurati to be willing to kill without hesitation is a red flag, it doesn't matter that she was crying while doing it she didn't hesitate, not even once, as soon as she had him in her sights it was all over.

Even if Maddox is a prime instigator that could trigger a repeat of some terrible event why didn't she just tell him or better still have the Commodore show him.

There is true and then there is TRUTH and it seems Jurati has been given a TRUTH, if someone like Jurati can be pushed to kill just by knowing what would it do to Picard, then look at Rizzo and Narek, the sister is willing to kill without remorse yet Narek will not even though they both supposedly know the same thing that Jurati knows.

Its making me wonder if Rizzo, Narek and Jurati know the same thing or not, presumably it was the Commodore who showed all three of them but perhaps Rizzo's experience was more personal than Narek's and Jurati's guilt is driving her, but even so killing Maddox will not atone for anything.

As I have said previously it does scream Borg Queen origin to me, perhaps Rizzo was on board that Romulan ship but Narek was not.
 
Would Dahj have lived if Narek had been sent instead.

I am not so sure that Dahj's death was really a mistake at all, something is really eating at Rizzo but not Narek.
I don't think he'd have started shooting at her right off the bat. Rizzo does have Oh threatening to fry her butt if she doesn't get her mission accomplished.

He could have knocked on her door and said:
Hi, I'm a student working to raise awareness and get help for the Romulan Relief Fund. Can you spare a minute of your time? The Tal Shiar bozos might have tried that, too but subtlety is a lost art in the 24th century, ebvidently.
 
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