• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers The state of Romulan politics/civilization/etc.

Germany and Italy used to be several, smaller independent states.

The Romulans may have just reverted to several smaller independent states similarly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sci
Germany and Italy used to be several, smaller independent states.

The Romulans may have just reverted to several smaller independent states similarly.
thought about that. The Romulan Free State certainly brings the Free State of Bavaria to mind (or the Free State of Fiume), so who knows?
tenor.gif
 
I normally associate "free state" with the Congo: Leopold's corporate state that massacred Africans in an insane pursuit of rubber. Perhaps a morose connection is that the Force Publique would "harvest" the hands of Africans who failed to meet quotas (proof that the bullets that were fired actually killed someone)--we don't know yet what the Romulans do with the Borg tech they remove.

ETA: The alternative association, the Orange Free State (one of the racist Boer republics), is no less problematic.

My first thought was the Irish Free State, the regime in Dublin that had achieved autonomy from Britain as a dominion of the Commonwealth before sundering ties entirely to become the modern republic of Ireland.

Certainly we don't have any evidence the Romulan Free State engages in Leopold-style bigotry and violence. Their willingness to allow Federation scientists aboard the Borg Artifact instead of keep their control of the ship secret from the rest of the galaxy seems to imply the RFS is more open and peaceful than the RSE.

And from the latest episode, "Absolute Candor," we have another faction: the Romulan Rebirth Movement.

As for the Tal Shiar, how did they come back so strongly after being wiped out in DS9?

Kor

As Lord Garth pointed out, the Tal Shiar weren't wiped out by the Dominion at the Battle of the Omarian Nebula. The Obsidian Order lost so many ships and agents that they were effectively disabled (leading to the Detapa Council taking control away from the Central Command half a year later before Dukat and the Dominion overthrew them in return), but the Tal Shiar continued. The Tal Shiar was even providing security at the Romulan/Federation conference on Romulus in DS9 Season Seven's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges,"

wherein we discovered that the Chair of the Tal Shiar was a Section 31 mole.

Belgian Congo may be the most (in)famous (today) political entity, which bore the title "free state", but far from the only one. Throughout history, there have been many other free states that greatly differed from each other in appearance and form of government. Perhaps the writer had in mind a completely different free state when he composed this story.

Perhaps he did not mean anything at all. He just got tired of all these endless sci-fi galactic republics, empires, federations, confederations, dominions, protectorates, unions, concordates ... How about something new and original? Oh, Free State! This is something that is not found every day in the space opera! Let's use it.

This.

Considering the Tal Shiar was just a mask for the Zhat Vash, an ancient secret society that secretly controlled the Romulan Empire,

I don't remember their exact words, but it seems improbable to me that the Zhat Vash "secretly controlled" the Star Empire. More likely that they'd have some key influence but would be mostly inactive as an organization (if only because "secret ancient conspiracies that actually control society" are just ridiculous). I think it's more realistic to interpret the Zhat Vash as a network some key Tal Shiar belong to but whose members mostly exercise power and authority through the "legitimate" organs of the state.

We know that there is also a lot of warlordism. Critically, this seems to straddle the former Neutral Zone; Vashti, IIRC from the novel, was on the Federation side. That a Romulan warbird can cross the frontier implies to me that the Federation may also be slipping.

I got the distinct impression from "Absolute Candor" that Vashti wasn't in Federation territory even if it's on the UFP side of the Neutral Zone. There's no indication Starfleet ever had a presence there, and the Fenric (or whatever they're called) Rangers are the ones cited as having an unfulfilled legal obligation to provide law enforcement and security services.

We may be starting to see a pluralization of Romulan civilization. With the old uniformity forced by the Star Empire and isolation gone, with the Neutral Zone being permeable and with multiple movements afoot, we may see the birth of multiple permanent Romulan states.

That would be really cool. The novels played with this concept about ten years ago, with Donatra breaking off from the RSE under Tal'Aura to become Empress of the Imperial Romulan State. This was from the novel continuity that PIC is mostly nullifying, but it's cool to see some concepts the novels played with being a part of canon now.
 
The current state of the former Romulan Empire reminds me of the multitude of kingdoms that came out of the fall of the western Roman Empire. I always assumed we'd see something like this when the Federation fell (and maybe we still will). Perhaps what's happening with the Romulans is a foreshadowing of what we'll see on the other show. (I know TPTB say the two shows won't be linked, but I don't buy it- too much opportunity to use one to set up the other)

Does that mean the Remans will become the equivalent of the Byzantine Empire?
 
What happened on Vashti when the Federation stopped evacuating the Romulans?

According to "Absolute Candor" and the Picard Novel "The Last Best Hope", the human settlers and the Romulans arriving on the planet had a really good start and the people on Vashti were really looking forward to live together in friendship with the new arrivals.

So how did the situation on the planet deteroriate so much into one of distrust and outward racism?

And how can a planet actually be poor in a non scarcity economy with Replicators, like the Federation?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
According to "Absolute Candor" and the Picard Novel "The Last Best Hope", the human settlers and the Romulans arriving on the planet had a really good start and the people on Vashti were really looking forward to live together in friendship with the new arrivals.

So how did the situation on the planet deteroriate so much into one of distrust and outward racism?

And how can a planet actually be poor in a non scarcity economy with Replicators, like the Federation?
1) Have you met humanity???
2) Non scarcity is for the core worlds.
 
It looks like that part of space is dominated by some warlord. With the collapse of Romulan space after the supernova, it reminds me somewhat of how China collapsed in the early 20th century during the Qing dynasty's final decline, after years of Western meddling, giving rise to the Warlord Era that ultimately left China unable to defend itself properly against Japan.

These few evacuation planets can't get the resources they need to really get a proper start, but then most colonies shown in Star Trek have been like that. At least they have a planetary defensive grid. At some point it seemed like the Fenris Rangers did try to provide some sort of security and maybe Seven's appearance showed they were still contesting the area.
 
What happened on Vashti when the Federation stopped evacuating the Romulans?

According to "Absolute Candor" and the Picard Novel "The Last Best Hope", the human settlers and the Romulans arriving on the planet had a really good start and the people on Vashti were really looking forward to live together in friendship with the new arrivals.

So how did the situation on the planet deteroriate so much into one of distrust and outward racism?

And how can a planet actually be poor in a non scarcity economy with Replicators, like the Federation?
Merged this one into the existing thread on Romulan politics and civlization.
 
It looks like that part of space is dominated by some warlord. With the collapse of Romulan space after the supernova, it reminds me somewhat of how China collapsed in the early 20th century during the Qing dynasty's final decline, after years of Western meddling, giving rise to the Warlord Era that ultimately left China unable to defend itself properly against Japan.

These few evacuation planets can't get the resources they need to really get a proper start, but then most colonies shown in Star Trek have been like that. At least they have a planetary defensive grid. At some point it seemed like the Fenris Rangers did try to provide some sort of security and maybe Seven's appearance showed they were still contesting the area.

If the Federation stopped everything, then a good start for Vashti might quickly have ended.

If I was a relocated Romulan, meanwhile, I think I would have a right to be upset if the Federation stopped the relocation program. If it stopped supporting the relocation ... Things can go badly.
 
If there is no Romulan Star Empire anymore, then doesn’t that mean there’s no more Neutral Zone as well? Shouldn’t D’deridex and Valdore class Warbirds be flying around more in Federation territory? Or are they just trying to police old Romulan territory?

I should note that Vashti is a world on the far side of the Neutral Zone, might even have been a Federation world. If warlordism in Romulan space is spilling over into spaces aligned with the Federation, this suggests remarkable weakness on the part of the UFP. Warlordism is spreading.
 
Does that mean the Remans will become the equivalent of the Byzantine Empire?

Seems improbable to me. What we now call the Byzantine Empire during its era called itself and considered itself the legitimate continuation of the Roman Empire. Its power was essentially equal to that of the Western Roman Empire.

The Remans, by constrast, were clearly an oppressed class; it is unclear if they even possessed their own distinct territory, and they clearly didn't have a government of their own.

If there's some sort of Reman polity post-supernova, I think a better comparison would be something like the Republic of Georgia post-Soviet Union -- a small state, formerly part of a larger empire.

And how can a planet actually be poor in a non scarcity economy with Replicators, like the Federation?

Seems pretty obvious to me that the Federation isn't providing Vashti with replicator technology, or at least not on a large enough scale to give them truly good living conditions.

None of the Romulans looked like they were going hungry.

True, but we might have only seen one of the more prosperous settlements -- and while none of them looked hungry, none of them looked exactly comfortable, either.

According to the novel, Vashti is a Federation colony world, in Federation space.

^ Or was that the situation 14 years ago? If there's no longer a Neutral Zone, the boundaries might have gotten fuzzy since then.

Indeed, if the Federation was re-settling Romulan refugees on a planet that was considered UFP territory, it would make sense for the Federation to renounce its claim on that planet out of respect for Romulan sovereignty.

I would imagine that the original plan was for the Federation to re-settle Romulan refugees on certain worlds within their territory, renounce their claim on those worlds and cede them to the Romulan Star Empire, but that after the Federation ended its resettlement efforts, the RSE collapsed and those resettlement planets ended up having to fend for themselves.
 
In the novel the idea was to offer Romulans settling on UFP worlds Federation citizenship. That seems to have been rescinded following Mars and the abandonment of rescue and resettlement.

The Romulans, instead of automatically getting Federation citizenship, would have the option to apply after five years.

I am not sure that we can judge whether the Federation lived up to these promises. If Vashti is a Federation world, the Federation seems to have retreated. Security is provided not by Starfleet but by the Fenris group? Warlords are roaming freely with old Birds of Prey, fighting battles in low planetary orbit? The Federation seems to have retreated wholesale from the sector. Everyone might have gotten Federation citizenship, but it seems as if that does not mean much.

China's warlord era comes to mind, but this spillover makes what is happening in Romulan space worse. It is as if Chinese warlordism led to the abandonment of Hong Kong and Vladivostok. The Federation is retreating in the face of deep instability in Romulan spaces.

(How ironic, then, that the border worlds which threatened secession find themselves so directly exposed!)
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top