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I'm liking the show so far but...

He was shaken at the end of the episode, then he was fine in the next one, and there was no blowback from the murder conspiracy emotional or otherwise. So I guess the message was that murder conspiracies are fine and dandy and totally will get the job done. Not exactly a moral I am hoping to see in a Star Trek show.

Just so I'm following, it sounds like what you want from Trek is for the universe to arrange itself so there is never any possible case where doing the " right thing" will produce a less than optimal outcome. Sisko should never have been put in a situation where his best option was to participate in the murder conspiracy? Have I got this right?

(Suddenly I'm having flashbacks to debates about Paragons and Renegades in the Mass Effect games.)

How do you feel about Kirk murdering Edith Keeler?
 
Just so I'm following, it sounds like what you want from Trek is for the universe to arrange itself so there is never any possible case where doing the " right thing" will produce a less than optimal outcome. Sisko should never have been put in a situation where his best option was to participate in the murder conspiracy? Have I got this right?

(Suddenly I'm having flashbacks to debates about Paragons and Renegades in the Mass Effect games.)

How do you feel about Kirk murdering Edith Keeler?
Kirk did not murder Edith Keeler. And no, I do not want Star Trek writers to write stories that justify murderous conspiracies and make them seem like efficient and heroic efforts.
 
He was shaken at the end of the episode, then he was fine in the next one, and there was no blowback from the murder conspiracy emotional or otherwise. So I guess the message was that murder conspiracies are fine and dandy and totally will get the job done. Not exactly a moral I am hoping to see in a Star Trek show.

If I'm remembering the episode correctly, Starfleet ends up being in on the plan.
 
I don't think so.

In the Pale Moonlight said:
GARAK: You will have handed him a genuine optolythic data rod, but it will contain one of the most perfect forgeries ever fashioned. I'm still working on obtaining the data rod, but I have located the man who will create the holorecording.
SISKO: You realise I can't authorise a thing like this on my own. I'll have to clear it with Starfleet Command.
 
Edith Keeler had been dead for three centuries.
And Kirk had the chance to change that but did nothing. In fact, he did his very best do keep it that way.
Actively working to turn one living person to a dead person...there should be a word for that
 
And Kirk had the chance to change that but did nothing. In fact, he did his very best do keep it that way.
Actively working to turn one living person to a dead person...there should be a word for that

I'm not getting the rub here? He allowed her to die in the way the timeline recognized she was supposed to die, saving millions of others in the process. Not sure how that equates to a fault on Kirk's part?
 
I'm not getting the rub here? He allowed her to die in the way the timeline recognized she was supposed to die, saving millions of others in the process. Not sure how that equates to a fault on Kirk's part?
it's the ethical question that's the core of the episode, isn't it? If you have to decide to save a life or stand by and do nothing for the Greater Good. It is a clash between two schools of moral thought, utilitarianism and deontological ethics. Basically a variant of the trolley problem. Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do? Kirk decided to kill Keeler (or decided to not save her life), but is it ethically sound to let someone die under any circumstances if one has the power to save that life?
 
Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do? Kirk decided to kill Keeler (or decided to not save her life), but is it ethically sound to let someone die under any circumstances if one has the power to save that life?

If you have proof that saving that life equates to millions more dead down the road, I don't see as how one has any choice other than allowing the one to die the way that history recognizes it.
 
If you have proof that saving that life equates to millions more dead down the road, I don't see as how one has any choice other than allowing the one to die the way that history recognizes it.
so, you have no responsibility whatsover to the one life you could save right now?
what's your solution to the trolley problem by the way?
 
so, you have no responsibility whatsover to the one life you could save right now?
what's your solution to the trolley problem by the way?

Kirk, Spock, and McCoy weren't supposed to be in 1930 anyway. So Edith Keeler dying is what would've originally happened. Is it sad? Yes. Is it horrible? You better believe it. But was it to be? Yes. The alternative is Germany wins World War II. I think it's absurd that Edith Keeler became influential enough to stop the United States from going into WWII but if that's what the plot says would've happened, then those are the stakes.
 
so, you have no responsibility whatsover to the one life you could save right now?
what's your solution to the trolley problem by the way?
Trolley problems are usually bullshit, real decision making almost never have such clearly defined results and thinking that it does will lead to more people being run over by trolleys than would if people kept their eyes open for better solutions. But access to time travel really fuck ups ethics in such a profound way that many questions become pretty ludicrous.
 
so, you have no responsibility whatsover to the one life you could save right now?

Kirk acted on the information and recommendation that he had on hand. To do anything else, honestly, would've been criminal on his part.

And isn't this the reverse trolley option? Pulling the lever and taking the trolley off the track where one is killed, to kill many, many more.
 
Kirk, Spock, and McCoy weren't supposed to be in 1930 anyway. So Edith Keeler dying is what would've originally happened. Is it sad? Yes. Is it horrible? You better believe it. But was it to be? Yes. The alternative is Germany wins World War II. I think it's absurd that Edith Keeler became influential enough to stop the United States from going into WWII but if that's what the plot says would've happened, then those are the stakes.
Trolley problems are usually bullshit, real decision making almost never have such clearly defined results and thinking that it does will lead to more people being run over by trolleys than would if people kept their eyes open for better solutions. But access to time travel really fuck ups ethics in such a profound way that many questions become pretty ludicrous.
the point still stands, is it ethically sound to let one person die if you have the power to save that life?
that's the question Ellison or Fontana or both wanted to answer.
and yes, time travel complicates things, but those complications are just set dressing to a very simple question at the core of said episode
 
Just so I'm following, it sounds like what you want from Trek is for the universe to arrange itself so there is never any possible case where doing the " right thing" will produce a less than optimal outcome. Sisko should never have been put in a situation where his best option was to participate in the murder conspiracy? Have I got this right?
That is often how Star Trek is expected to be portrayed, even though the higher ups have been portrayed in various lights, including very negative ones.
 
the point still stands, is it ethically sound to let one person die if you have the power to save that life?
that's the question Ellison or Fontana or both wanted to answer.
and yes, time travel complicates things, but those complications are just set dressing to a very simple question at the core of said episode
I think facing what was coming, the Sisko had a moral imperative to do whatever it took to defeat the Dominion by any means necessary. but that he became squeamish about Sec31 doing the same thing (successfully) later, seemed a bit odd.
 
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