Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x03 - "The End is the Beginning"

[Racefuel]

The Dominion War clearly changed the Federation as a whole more than I think it was ever previously explored...I mean if you look at it you had the Federation either explicitly or tacitly...

Supporting the genocide of an entire species (The Founders)..NOTE..this isn't the first time they had considered this as they also had previously attempted to exterminate the Borg in "I, Borg".

Deceiving the Romulans into the war by murdering their Ambassador and blaming it on the Dominion

Now the first one was Section 31..but it was a human behind it..and Sisko went along with Garak's plot, etc.

So yeah..the decay of the moral core of the Federation has been going on for a solid 20 years by this point.

 

[JoeZhang]

Because of her drug history, I think she's a somewhat unreliable narrator. Only somewhat. She's telling the truth as she sees it, but it's filtered through a lens. She was probably very good at what she does and that's probably also what kept her going.

Going into the weeds (no pun intended), he might've seen Musiker as being like Ro. Maybe he thought he could help Musiker succeed in Starfleet in a way that he couldn't with Ro.

That is absolutely nothing on screen that suggests she was a drug user while in Starfleet - nothing.

 

[Greg Cox]

Oh, as to the "JL" thing, I didn't have a problem with that. It worked as a shorthand way of indicating that Raffi was not Riker 2.0 back when she was his second-in-command. She and Picard had a different working relationship, complete with a different nickname. That's all we really needed to know.

 

[Crewman6]

It's funny. The news is showing footage of a guy who was just fired from his "job" with a top intelligence agency. He wasn't fired from his branch of the military. The firing reflects a shift away from a coveted position.

Could not Raffi be fired in this sense?

Perhaps I'm being too orthodox in my interpretation of Raffi's line. "Getting fired" could be a reasonable euphemism for getting transferred to a shitty job and removed from a previous coveted position. Especially since she says that BEFORE she meets with the CNC.

Later, she clarifies that her "security clearance was revoked." If she was truly kicked out of starfleet entirely, that would obviously be a given. But that's not what she says.

So maybe the episode actually did find the middle ground I was suggesting and I just missed it!

whoopsie!

 

[DaveyNY]

She's not a drug addict until the show tells us she's a drug addict. Actor interviews don't count.

They don't count for you.
Many of the rest of us acknowledge that the actors playing the character most likely are correct in their descriptions.

 

[Danja]

That is absolutely nothing on screen that suggests she was a drug user while in Starfleet - nothing.

it probably happened after she was drummed out.

 

[Longinus]

But wouldn't in the pale moonlight was more about sisko making the compromise. The underlying methods of federation in that situation would have resulted in failure to bring the romulans on side. So sisko compromising his values makes it a far more powerful story... imho

I have to say I am not exactly thrilled about how Starfleet and Federation is depicted on Picard, nor was I huge fan of Sisko being involved in a murderous conspiracy (as well made as that episode was.) But the reason why the former seems more tolerable to me than the latter is how the show frames it. On DS9 we're supposed to see Sisko as heroic, he is not depicted as a villain even though he commits villainous deeds. It is effectively justifying murder. On Picard I don't think we are supposed to like what the Federation and Starfleet have become, it is presented as sad and tragic.

 

[Lord Garth]

That is absolutely nothing on screen that suggests she was a drug user while in Starfleet - nothing.

Indeed, but I didn't say that. I said her drug history makes her an unreliable narrator when talking about what happened in the past.

I don't know what issues she might've had (or might not have had) before, but it's possible Picard was a pillar for her. It seems that way. Or she wouldn't have descended to the extent it looks like she has if he wasn't.

 

[BillJ]

So yeah..the decay of the moral core of the Federation has been going on for a solid 20 years by this point.

I'm not sure it is "moral decay", but more fear driven. Much like what has happened in the US since 2001. This was a society that thought it was safe, then got 92,000 dead right on their doorstep. It shook them to their very core.

 

[Tarek71]

The storytelling Fart was not in them wanting to have interpersonal conflicts. That is a good idea. It is in how they tried to establish it. Making it related to Picards resignation and the failure to persuade Starfleet to continue the rescue mission was an odd choice. She clearly thinks he was in the right, supported him and agreed that Starfleet is wrong about this. So why is she mad at him? She got "fired"? Ok, but not by him. She was kicked out of Starfleet? Is that what "fired" means? Discharged? How is that his fault? He is out too, and he's out for taking a stand that they both believe in.

Why does he make no attempt to contact her for 14/15 years? No idea. Maybe she is mad at that. She's struggling since leaving SF? OK, again, not his fault.

 

[Racefuel]

I have to say I am not exactly thrilled about how Starfleet and Federation is depicted on Picard, nor was I huge fan of Sisko being involved in a murderous conspiracy (as well made as that episode was.) But the reason why the former seems more tolerable to me than the latter is how the show frames it. On DS9 we're supposed to see Sisko as heroic, he is not depicted as a villain even though he commits villainous deeds. It is effectively justifying murder. On Picard I don't think we are supposed to like what the Federation and Starfleet have become, it is presented as sad and tragic.

No, you're supposed to feel that Picard leaving Starfleet/walking away from the core of the Federation was justified

Which it was.

 

[Crewman6]

I thought her beef made perfect sense. Picard resigned and ran away from life, including her, probably when she needed support the most. And I always thought good writing and acting and directing was from being able to communicate to the audience what is going on without spelling it all out.

Two issues:

I goofed and misunderstood the order of the dialogue. I thought she actually said, " I got fired" while at Vasquez rocks, but instead she said she had her "clearance revoked", which is exactly the kind of demotion/transfer/whatever I was advocating for, not realizing I was simply wrong.

Second thing: I still think it's shitty and out of character for Picard to literally just ignore her for 14 years after she got screwed over following his resignation. That's not the Picard we know and no amount of "well, he was depressed, too!" justifications will make it ring true.

 

[Longinus]

The storytelling Fart was not in them wanting to have interpersonal conflicts. That is a good idea. It is in how they tried to establish it. Making it related to Picards resignation and the failure to persuade Starfleet to continue the rescue mission was an odd choice. She clearly thinks he was in the right, supported him and agreed that Starfleet is wrong about this. So why is she mad at him? She got "fired"? Ok, but not by him. She was kicked out of Starfleet? Is that what "fired" means? Discharged? How is that his fault? He is out too, and he's out for taking a stand that they both believe in.

Why does he make no attempt to contact her for 14/15 years? No idea. Maybe she is mad at that. She's struggling since leaving SF? OK, again, not his fault.

Yeah, it was kinda weird.

 

[Racefuel]

I'm not sure it is "moral decay", but more fear driven. Much like what has happened in the US since 2001. This was a society that thought it was safe, then got 92,000 dead right on their doorstep. It shook them to their very core.

Well fear is the mechanism behind it, but the moral decay/collapse of values is the end result..that's what I am meaning.

 

[DaveyNY]

Raffi also pretty much finished off by herself, the bottle of wine that Jean-Luc brought before their conversation ended.

Alcoholic thy name be Raffi?

 

[Racefuel]

Raffi also pretty much finished off by herself the bottle of wine that Jean-Luc brought before their conversation ended.

Alcoholic thy name be Raffi?

Lt Dan---I mean...Raffi!

 

[Longinus]

No, you're supposed to feel that Picard leaving Starfleet/walking away from the core of the Federation was justified

Which it was.

Yes, that's effectively what I said.

 

[Racefuel]

Yes, that's effectively what I said.

I was affirming what you said

 

[Crewman6]

They don't count for you.
Many of the rest of us acknowledge that the actors playing the character most likely are correct in their descriptions.

If it's not a part of the text, then it doesn't count for anyone.

HOWEVER.....!

I just rewatched the scene in question and discovered I misremembered several facts! While she's toking up, she says, "Somethings never change", referencing the fact that, even back then, she was into snakeweed or whatever.

So, the show did, in fact, establish her drug use going back to the flashback era.

Still not the same as "being an addict", but I'll allow for the possibility.

 

[Danja]

I still think it's shitty and out of character for Picard to literally just ignore her for 14 years after she got screwed over following his resignation. That's not the Picard we know and no amount of "well, he was depressed, too!" justifications will make it ring true.

How much of his behavior is due to the alleged Irumodic Syndrome?