Have the PICARD prequel tie-ins been announced as "Canon"?

[BillJ]

Hi guys,

just to get something straight, as part of a discussion elsewhere -

Have the Picard: Countdown comicbook mini series or The Last Best Hope novel been announced as "canon" by CBS or any official Trek related person?

Or are they "official" until contradicted by future on-screen material?

thank!

The tail doesn't wag the dog.

 

[Christopher]

I wonder, is it really a retcon though?

Yes, it obviously is. I agree with you that it was invalid for the writers and characters to say he didn't have emotion. But they did say it. They said it constantly and incessantly, and they built whole episodes around the premise. And they didn't start doing so until season 3, after a couple of ambiguous statements in season 2. It absolutely was a change in how the writers interpreted and approached the character. Originally, there was never meant to be any doubt that Data was capable of emotion. The original bible explicitly said that he had "the dominant emotional traits" of the dead colonists whose memories he was built to contain. Even questioning his capacity for emotion was a change that wasn't introduced until later.

I guess I see it from a different angle than you do. Any changes in Data's personality over the years I attributed to him learning, adapting, and 'growing up' for lack of a better word.

We're talking about two different things. If I were talking about it from an in-universe perspective, pretending that Data was a real person, I would naturally do the same thing you're doing and interpret his changes as a consistent process of growth. I have done so, in fact. The things you're saying about whether he really had emotions are much like the things I had Deanna Troi say to him on the page in "Friends with the Sparrows." And I reconciled his more emotional behavior in season 1 with the later interpretation of his character in The Buried Age.

But that's not the conversation I'm having here in this thread. I'm talking about Star Trek as a work of fiction, and I'm talking about how the writers who took over TNG in season 3 had a different vision of the character than their predecessors. Just because we can reconcile it after the fact does not mean it wasn't a change in approach.

 

[Damian]

It absolutely was a change in how the writers interpreted and approached the character.

Ok, I guess it's just I didn't notice it as much as you did. Part of it is in any show in the first year or so things are adjusted as the show settles in. Obviously with TNG there were staff changes and the new writers had different priorities. So from a real world perspective I just basically assumed changes were just things settling in and the writers trying to decide what final form they wanted the characters to be. Other characters had various subtle changes as well (or even some make-up changes like Worf).

And in universe I just figured any changes were the natural growth of the character. For Data it wasn't such a drastic change that it couldn't be explained within the story.

Just because we can reconcile it after the fact does not mean it wasn't a change in approach.

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Yeah, I agree. The show runners changing had some definite impacts on TNG in later seasons. For the most part I liked the change in approach. I thought the later seasons were stronger overall than the earlier ones. But there are things from early seasons that I wish they had retained. Though I admit at the beginning of TNG I wasn't sure I was going to like it. No Kirk or Spock first of all. I had a hard time with that at first. But I pushed through it and TNG ended up becoming a favorite show of mine, partly because the writing got better and the show and characters became more interesting.

But I tend to focus on the in story aspects of Star Trek (oh, and production design is a biggie for me as well--but I'm more interested in the final product seen on screen, not as much on the behind the scenes building of it all). I guess that's why I tend to fall back on it. If it can be explained in story then it doesn't bother me. There were some changes in Data's personality as TNG carried on. But it's not so extreme that it can't be explained within the story so it doesn't bother me.

The same with the Cardassian Wars. That is more of a retcon in my eyes. BUT, it too can be reconciled within story so I'm not all that bothered by it.

The spore drive in Discover was a bigger deal for me. That was harder to reconcile with later shows, but then the end of Season 2 managed to provide an in-story reason why it wasn't developed further (and it's dangers fixed to make it a safer technology). Now personally I thought it was a bit of a clumsy explanation--but it's a reason nonetheless why it disappears for all time (or at least through the 24th century).

 

[Christopher]

The spore drive in Discover was a bigger deal for me. That was harder to reconcile with later shows, but then the end of Season 2 managed to provide an in-story reason why it wasn't developed further (and it's dangers fixed to make it a safer technology). Now personally I thought it was a bit of a clumsy explanation--but it's a reason nonetheless why it disappears for all time (or at least through the 24th century).

There are dozens of Trek technologies that disappeared inexplicably after their introduction. I mean, DS9's first season alone gave us quick-cloning, consciousness transfer, and nanotech that could heal any injury. Put those three together and you'd have immortality! But they were completely forgotten about after their sole uses.

I think DSC season 1 provided abundant explanations for why spore drive was abandoned. Anything whose use has the potential to destroy the multiverse should obviously be abandoned. The idea that the entire existence of the ship and its crew had to be classified for all time was hardly necessary to account for it.

 

[Damian]

There are dozens of Trek technologies that disappeared inexplicably after their introduction. I mean, DS9's first season alone gave us quick-cloning, consciousness transfer, and nanotech that could heal any injury. Put those three together and you'd have immortality! But they were completely forgotten about after their sole uses.

I think DSC season 1 provided abundant explanations for why spore drive was abandoned. Anything whose use has the potential to destroy the multiverse should obviously be abandoned. The idea that the entire existence of the ship and its crew had to be classified for all time was hardly necessary to account for it.

That's all true, but much of those here today gone tomorrow technologies were one episode story devices. It's a little harder to dismiss something that is such an important part of the show as spore drive was to Discovery. It wasn't just a one off story device.

And yeah, I get about it's danger to the multi-verse. But my contention always was that if it could take you anywhere in the galaxy (maybe universe) instantaneously I doubt Starfleet would just abandon it. They may have to put it on ice but I would think they would do everything they could to make it a safe technology to use. I would think all things being equal by the time of TNG they would have found a way to use spore drive safely. But classifying it eliminates that avenue for the future (though I thought it was clumsy because there's always the possibility of leaks, esp. since so many people were aware of it--but it was something I guess so I'll let it go for now ).

 

[Christopher]

That's all true, but much of those here today gone tomorrow technologies were one episode story devices. It's a little harder to dismiss something that is such an important part of the show as spore drive was to Discovery. It wasn't just a one off story device.

That's out-of-universe. In-universe, the technologies had equal potential to be civilization-altering. And Trek has done it so many times that it does cumulatively add up to much more than a one-off -- it's a consistent policy of abandoning technologies that prove dangerous in some way (with the notable exception of holodecks). So that's sufficiently built into the storytelling that I still don't think it needed a special explanation this time.

 

[David Weller]

I may have said it before but I don’t care whether something is canon or not.

I'm just here for the stories.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Read by 2% of the audience. What would be the point in restricting all future onscreen Trek lore by a tie-in comic?

I know I've read somewhere even things like the viewscreen showed things in 3-d (even if we couldn't see it since we were watching it in 2d).

I think it is the "Star Trek Logs" of TAS adaptations that use the term tri-dee viewer for the tabletop three-sided screens on conference tables. I thought it was a clever way to suggest both three sides and a 3D projection/image.

 

[Damian]

That's out-of-universe. In-universe, the technologies had equal potential to be civilization-altering. And Trek has done it so many times that it does cumulatively add up to much more than a one-off -- it's a consistent policy of abandoning technologies that prove dangerous in some way (with the notable exception of holodecks). So that's sufficiently built into the storytelling that I still don't think it needed a special explanation this time.

I think the problem with Discovery is they kept using the spore drive even after it was proven dangerous. The other technologies you mentioned were dropped after a single story--in a way making them easier to forget about in the grand scheme of things. But when you keep using something and it's a key part of the show, I just thought that required a bit more of the why it was not only abandoned--but why it would never be perfected and brought back either. It's simply that it didn't go away but was used again and again across two seasons.

I think it is the "Star Trek Logs" of TAS adaptations that use the term tri-dee viewer for the tabletop three-sided screens on conference tables. I thought it was a clever way to suggest both three sides and a 3D projection/image.

I haven't read the Logs yet so I didn't get it from those. Though I have all the Logs now so I plan on reading them at some point.

I believe I read it in a novel at some point, or maybe it was an early references book. Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise maybe? But I do recall reading somewhere the viewscreens were supposed to give a 3d image.

 

[Damian]

I may have said it before but I don’t care whether something is canon or not.

I'm just here for the stories.

Yeah, agree with you there. I love to debate stuff but I've read hundreds of Star Trek books over the years and consider them part of the continuity in my Star Trek universe.

The only time the canon comes into play for me is if it's contradictory to the novels--then I just consider the novel an alternate story or if it's a series of books (like what will happen to the relaunches once Picard starts) then an alternate universe.

In fact I'm re-reading "Strangers from the Sky" now. It certainly does not fit with existing Star Trek history (in fact, at that time WWIII and the Eugenics Wars were still considered one and the same--they had not yet been split up). But it's a great story nonetheless.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I haven't read the Logs yet so I didn't get it from those. Though I have all the Logs now so I plan on reading them at some point.

Ah, the episode (or adaptation of) "The Jihad" (TAS) definitely references a "tridee tape".

 

[Damian]

Ah, the episode (or adaptation of) "The Jihad" (TAS) definitely references a "tridee tape".

One of my favorite episodes of the animated series . I'm rewatching the animated series now and for what was a children's show it's pretty sophisticated. If you shut your eyes and just listen you could almost imagine it as a part of the live TV series. "The Jihad" "Yesteryear" and "The Slaver Weapon" were 3 favorites. "The Counter Clock Incident" is up there as well. They all dealt with some heady sci-fi topics. And one positive of animation is they were able to create some truly alien characters. I look forward to reading the Logs adaptations. I'll probably wait until I finish up the James Blish' adaptations of the TV series first though.