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Starship design history in light of Discovery

There's no way in Hell that the Humans could have WON a war with the Romulans, if all the Earth Star Fleet ships only had "Atomic Weapons'.
As it was the Romulan starships were far superior to anything Earth had to put into battle at that time.
Even the Vulcans of that time period acknowledged that the little bit of info (they were willing to admit to) about the Romulans was that they were a known Warrior Race intent on Empire building.

This also negates the premise that the Romulan BOP only had Impulse Engines in "Balance of Terror", again there's no way in Hell that the Romulans could have gotten to within striking range of Earth and its colonies without WARP Drives in their ships, it would have taken many decades for them to even get close enough to fire at something.

Spock obviously was 'generalizing' A LOT in his statements.

But you’re equating what Spock said about atomic weapons to what we saw in ENT with Romulan technology. The two (Spock’s statements and what we actually saw in ENT) are two contradictory things. He was implying that both sides had atomic weapons and were equally matched tech-wise. If we ignore Spock and go with ENT, neither side had nukes.
 
What we saw in ENTERPRISE is Canon, like it or not.
Kinda hard to debate at this point, what Spock said without taking that into consideration.
(it becomes a one sided conversation of denial, rather than an exchange of ideas)

And the NX-01 did still have missile capabilities (though They used the term Torpedo most often), so it isn't all that far fetched to believe that Nuclear Warheads could have been adapted to be used as well.
Especially since it was stated that the "Photonic Weapons" were very new and limited in number.
 
Actually, they never said "missile" in ENT. Those original weapons were "spatial torpedoes", their warhead type being unknown.

As for "atomic", we have no idea what that might be. Today, there are no atomic weapons: the closest we get is fuel-air explosives that rely on "atomized" aerosols for optimal combustion. Fission or fusion bombs are not "atomic", and never have been, except in civilian press.

Perhaps phasers are "atomic"? Asimov's death rays were, at any rate.

Spock specifies that the atomics used in the Romulan War were "primitive". This is not really consistent with the idea that he would be speaking of A-Bombs, because surely the Romulan War would see the most advanced A-Bombs of all time, before Starfleet moved on to a newer type of technology altogether! However, it would be consistent with the idea that Starfleet in TOS keeps on using atomics, which thus are more advanced than the RW era ones. After all, Spock is saying that very thing about starships in the same phrase: primitive in RW, advanced in TOS.

All we need to do is decide which of Kirk's weapons are atomic, then. The death rays? Or the torpedoes? Or did he have advanced atomic planetary bombardment ordnance or other weaponry that we never saw in TOS because it was reserved for wartime use and there was no war in TOS?

Timo Saloniemi
 
What we saw in ENTERPRISE is Canon, like it or not.
Kinda hard to debate at this point, what Spock said without taking that into consideration.
(it becomes a one sided conversation of denial, rather than an exchange of ideas)

Yes, ENT is canon. So is Spock’s statement. But they are not consistent. What I saw in ENT did not look like primitive space vessels fitted with atomic weapons which allowed no quarter and/or captives, or ship to ship visual communication. I saw the exact opposite of that.

And as far as the usage of the word ‘atomic’ goes, this was the ‘60’s. ‘Atomic’ was analogous with ‘nuclear.’
 
Context is King ...

What Spock considers "primitive" from his perspective 100 years after the fact and what we consider "primitive" from ours 100 years before the fact, are obviously going to be completely different.

Consistency really has very little to do with it.

(and really, Star Trek is notoriously known for NOT being "consistent")
:shrug:
 
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And as far as the usage of the word ‘atomic’ goes, this was the ‘60’s. ‘Atomic’ was analogous with ‘nuclear.’

This. And this is bolstered by the Romulan Bird-of-Prey being equipped with an "old-style" nuclear warhead for self-destruction purposes. They meant atomic AKA nuclear weapons.
 
Context is King ...

What Spock considers "primitive" from his perspective 100 years after the fact and what we consider "primitive" from ours 100 years before the fact are obviously going to be completely different.

Consistency really has very little to do with it.

(and really, Star Trek is notoriously known for NOT being "consistent")
:shrug:

I’m going by what we see in the respective shows, not by what’s going on in the real world. Star Trek is not the real world. What Spock said in BoT is not consistent with what we see in ENT, as far as I’m concerned. It’s not good, or bad. It just is.
 
Context is King ...

What Spock considers "primitive" from his perspective 100 years after the fact and what we consider "primitive" from ours 100 years before the fact are obviously going to be completely different.

Consistency really has very little to do with it.

(and really, Star Trek is notoriously known for NOT being "consistent")
Pretty much this.

Also, what is often considered "primitive" is not nearly as primitive as those describing it declare it to be.
 
Nothing I saw in ENT looked primitive to me, in the context of Star Trek proper. To me, ENT looked like episodes of Voyager only with a different ship and crew. Why certain people seem to have such a problem with my viewpoint, I’m not sure, but that’s not my problem.
 
Nothing I saw in ENT looked primitive to me, in the context of Star Trek proper. To me, ENT looked like episodes of Voyager only with a different ship and crew. Why certain people seem to have such a problem with my viewpoint, I’m not sure, but that’s not my problem.
Having a problem with? No. Disagree with? Yes.
 
Nothing I saw in ENT looked primitive to me, in the context of Star Trek proper. To me, ENT looked like episodes of Voyager only with a different ship and crew. Why certain people seem to have such a problem with my viewpoint, I’m not sure, but that’s not my problem.

Enterprise was spun out of the events of First Contact. So there's no issue for me with their tech being different than Spock describes in "Balance of Terror". They got a tech boost somewhere that the original timeline didn't get. I feel the same way about Discovery.

This also negates the premise that the Romulan BOP only had Impulse Engines in "Balance of Terror", again there's no way in Hell that the Romulans could have gotten to within striking range of Earth and its colonies without WARP Drives in their ships, it would have taken many decades for them to even get close enough to fire at something.

We're talking about a single ship. Perhaps they chucked the warp drive for their new weapon and cloaking device and a Romulan carrier was within a few days of it at impulse speeds.
 
Indeed, nobody in the episode suggests the Romulans would "lack warp drives", let alone "fail to possess the secret of warp drives". The only thing stated, with some conviction, is that the individual ship they are facing has "simple impulse power" that puts it at a speed disadvantage.

And even that boisterous statement may be in error. Scotty is out of his depth trying to judge this invisible alien ship by what she has not done so far. Essentially, he's an idiot, guilty of a basic logical fallacy: not having seen a "complex warp" powerplant in action so far is no basis for denying its presence. But experts often are. And there's little point in calling him for his error when the Romulans do go to warp... Especially as they still obviously can't outrun our heroes.

Context is King ...

What Spock considers "primitive" from his perspective 100 years after the fact and what we consider "primitive" from ours 100 years before the fact, are obviously going to be completely different.

This. The 1960s or the 2000s don't feature in it at all. Trying to evoke them is what creates the perception of inconsistency.

We can't tell what is primitive and what is not out of a pool of technology in which everything is futuristic to us. Spock may consider virtual reality controls hopelessly antiquated as a concept, say; even for Archer, those might be something from the dark ages. We have to trust our heroes on this, plain and simple. And Spock is specifically using a qualifier to denote the differences between "then" and "now", essentially telling us that "then" was the same as "now", only more primitive. This works fine with ENT as "then" and TOS as "now", exactly because the two are the same: Archer's phasers, engines and sensors are the same, only more primitive.

The two issues here are different altogether:

1) Is invisibility really "theoretical" as late as the 2260s?
2) Could Archer's space navy really not take prisoners of war?

The first issue is merely a source of embarrassment for the writer of "BoT": no space hero worth the title should be unfamiliar with invisibility devices, no two ways about it. The second is a continuity issue for real: the writers of ENT failed to create circumstances that would make it technologically impossible to take prisoners, Romulan or other.

Of course, ENT along with the rest of Trek offers plenty of reason for Romulan prisoners being difficult to take: the trigger-happiness with the self-destruct systems, the Romulan fondness for proxy fighting with drones and slave races and illusions, and even the underlying need for this secrecy. It's just that this isn't technological as such. But Spock says the prisoners were not taken because the fighting did not allow for mercy - and any number of fundamentally technological limitations could amount to this in ENT style combat. Indeed, the only prisoner-capturing device available to Archer's navy, the transporter, could be utterly negated the first moment the Romulans turn on their shields; Starfleet would probably need decades to come up with tactics that make transporters valid again. And all the better if they do, because then Spock's claim that the capturing troubles were in the past is true again.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Uhura in one episode refers to "Cage"-style hand lasers as antiquated despite the fact Starfleet itself used them within her lifetime. I can see Spock seeing ENT Era ships and weapons as primitive and for all sorts of reasons.
 
OTOH, that's just another example of X coming in both old and new variants. If Uhura speaks of "old-style hand lasers", this may just as well be read as establishing the existence "new-style hand lasers"...

Uhura in "A Private Little War" was adding to a list of outdated weapons, yes. But she was probably capping the list begun by Scotty and Chekov with the absolute latest in the category of outdated weapons, which probably would be an older version of the stuff currently in use.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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