R-rated "Galaxy Quest"?

[Alan Roi]

I always took it as a critique of generally using attractive women to lure in the nerd crowd ( the assumption being that boobs would boost sales which, if we're honest, they do).

Since it's a Star Trek spoof i can see it though.. sexism has always been there with Trek, even as socially progressive as it was. It just couldn't avoid the short skirts and tight fighting shirts and to cast attractive women with no real plan other than to have some eye candy for the show.

In one Q&A at a con i saw Marina Sirtis speaking about her role and she directly adressed this.. the producers on the show didn't have a clue for the first few seasons what to actually do with her and early on she was at high risk of actually being cut from TNG if not for Denise Crosby leaving.

Now i actually got a bit annoyed, maybe angry, and also disappointed when Seven was introduced.. on its own a cool concept having a Borg drone be freed and see her reintegrate into society but of course they chose a very attractive and curvaceous woman and put her in a skin tight bodysuit for the entirety of the show (and in the process they cut another female character who was no sex puppet). She became a really good character and Ryan played her well but to this day i'm still disappointed.

They basically did the same with T'Pol on Enterprise though not as obvious (she was "allowed" to wear normal clothes but still rather close fitting) but then upped the ante with the decontamination scenes

Thankfully Discovery managed to avoid this and i don't expect Picard to have some obvious sexualized roles so there's hope the franchise has put this in the past and moved on.

Disco has flirted with the concept on occasion: Captain Killy, Mirror Georgieu, Commander Nahn...

 

[FPAlpha]

Disco has flirted with the concept on occasion: Captain Killy, Mirror Georgieu, Commander Nahn...

How so?

None of them were dressed especially provocatively if i recall correctly. The actress Mary Wiseman is also a bit on the heavy side, something you rarely, if ever, see as a regular cast member outside of comedy shows as women on TV and movies are usually at least normal to slender/thin when it comes to weight.

I applaud this decision because it shows a wider variety of body types and Wiseman is awesome in her role and again Disco never uses that choice to show how progressive they are, it is just there.

 

[Alan Roi]

How so?

None of them were dressed especially provocatively if i recall correctly. The actress Mary Wiseman is also a bit on the heavy side, something you rarely, if ever, see as a regular cast member outside of comedy shows as women on TV and movies are usually at least normal to slender/thin when it comes to weight.

I applaud this decision because it shows a wider variety of body types and Wiseman is awesome in her role and again Disco never uses that choice to show how progressive they are, it is just there.

Even though Michelle Yeoh has gone on record stating she thinks the outfits she wears as MU Georgiou are, to her, dominatrix outfits, that's not entirety the whole of presenting characters in a sexually charged way.

The presentation of a character which is meant to be provocatively sexual isn't limited to them dressed especially provocatively. Uhura for instance is presented more sexily than Yeoman Rand and Nurse Chapel even if they are wearing the same kind of miniskirt.

And note I said "Captain Killy", not Ensign Tilly or Mary Wiseman in my list.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Even though Michelle Yeoh has gone on record stating she thinks the outfits she wears as MU Georgiou are, to her, dominatrix outfits, that's not entirety the whole of presenting characters in a sexually charged way.

The presentation of a character which is meant to be provocatively sexual isn't limited to them dressed especially provocatively. Uhura for instance is presented more sexily than Yeoman Rand and Nurse Chapel even if they are wearing the same kind of miniskirt.

And note I said "Captain Killy", not Ensign Tilly or Mary Wiseman in my list.

The Killy uniform is flashy, peacocky and impractical as all get out, but it's hardly sexualized. It's no tighter or more form fitting than the standard SF uniforms, it has way more detail and flourish making it actually less of a 'catsuit' than the standard SF uniforms and the only things I could even see being considered even a little sexy are the fact that the breast plate is gold rather than dark blue and there's a mildly plunging neckline. But the neckline is only plunging because it starts at a very high collar, meaning it's a 'plunging neckline' with basically zero cleavage. And while the gold material will obviously draw more attention to the chest area than dark blue, it's hardly the first time a Star Trek uniform has been bright in the chest area - and this one actually has a clear, thick layer of fabric covering the chest, not disimilar to the monster maroons from the TOS movies.

I don't recall all the outfits Yeoh has had, but regardless of what the actress says her Empress costume looked nothing like a dominatrix. It was actually even less sexualized than Killy, since it didn't give even the illusion of cleavage.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Disco has flirted with the concept on occasion: Captain Killy, Mirror Georgieu, Commander Nahn...

Not to mention L'Rell.

 

[Alan Roi]

The Killy uniform is flashy, peacocky and impractical as all get out, but it's hardly sexualized. It's no tighter or more form fitting than the standard SF uniforms, it has way more detail and flourish making it actually less of a 'catsuit' than the standard SF uniforms and the only things I could even see being considered even a little sexy are the fact that the breast plate is gold rather than dark blue and there's a mildly plunging neckline. But the neckline is only plunging because it starts at a very high collar, meaning it's a 'plunging neckline' with basically zero cleavage. And while the gold material will obviously draw more attention to the chest area than dark blue, it's hardly the first time a Star Trek uniform has been bright in the chest area - and this one actually has a clear, thick layer of fabric covering the chest, not disimilar to the monster maroons from the TOS movies.

I don't recall all the outfits Yeoh has had, but regardless of what the actress says her Empress costume looked nothing like a dominatrix. It was actually even less sexualized than Killy, since it didn't give even the illusion of cleavage.

As I pointed out, while some may think that catsuits w/cleavage are the epitome of the sexualized characterization, they aren't the only way that's done. I was also referring to the tight leather outfits MU Georgiuo was wearing once she crossed over into the Prime Universe and so was Yeoh. Do you think that Wiseman as Captain Killy isn't played as being a significantly sexier presentation than Wiseman as Ensign Tilly?

 

[FPAlpha]

But isn't the MU universe kind of a spoof of the main universe altogether with character traits basically reversed for people from the main universe?

Women in the MU use their sexuality openly as a tool and they dress accordingly, something the MU two parter in Enterprise really showed, compared to that the Discovery MU women are downright tame. I get where Yeoh comes from but even if she was a bit uncomfortable it's nothing i haven't seen in broad daylight in the city these days (not to mention the outfits i've seen back in my days when i went to the clubs).

I find it nice how Star Trek tries to (and sometimes fails) to represent the times it is produced in but also it is quite evident what the showrunners/producers thought the core audience wanted which may have been a reflection of their own desires or shortcomings.

60s it was miniskirts and meaningless roles (Uhura), 80/90s it was nice looking set dressing with a character they didn't know what to do with (Troi), 90s/00s it was full on sex (Seven) and 00s it was barely better (T'Pol).

I feel though that with the start of Discovery they actively tried to leave that behind, they still have attractive women but they wear the same uniforms and their characters are as equal to men as they come, hell - the main character in Disco has a traditionally male name (which really confused me for a minute in the show pilot).

Trek at least tries to get ahead of the curve (or at least stay on it) and i like it because at its core Trek was always about showing who we could be one day if we only set our mind to it.

 

[Alan Roi]

But isn't the MU universe kind of a spoof of the main universe altogether with character traits basically reversed for people from the main universe?

Women in the MU use their sexuality openly as a tool and they dress accordingly, something the MU two parter in Enterprise really showed, compared to that the Discovery MU women are downright tame. I get where Yeoh comes from but even if she was a bit uncomfortable it's nothing i haven't seen in broad daylight in the city these days (not to mention the outfits i've seen back in my days when i went to the clubs).

I find it nice how Star Trek tries to (and sometimes fails) to represent the times it is produced in but also it is quite evident what the showrunners/producers thought the core audience wanted which may have been a reflection of their own desires or shortcomings.

60s it was miniskirts and meaningless roles (Uhura), 80/90s it was nice looking set dressing with a character they didn't know what to do with (Troi), 90s/00s it was full on sex (Seven) and 00s it was barely better (T'Pol).

I feel though that with the start of Discovery they actively tried to leave that behind, they still have attractive women but they wear the same uniforms and their characters are as equal to men as they come, hell - the main character in Disco has a traditionally male name (which really confused me for a minute in the show pilot).

Trek at least tries to get ahead of the curve (or at least stay on it) and i like it because at its core Trek was always about showing who we could be one day if we only set our mind to it.

This has been the basic rule of Trek since the 60s - Women who are openly or aggressively sexual are to some degree, evil, which is in its roots. IMO, the Mirror Universe is a cosmic MMORPG that is kind of akin to Oz, where the generally (good) inhibited Star Fleet characters go to meet their uninhibited (not good) versions of themselves. Troi, Seven and T'Pol were designed as attempts to have it both ways, women who are chaste but sexy in a sort of sexy mannequin sort of attractive to nerdish fanboys. I specifically said that Disco has flirted with the openly/aggressively sexualized characterizations in the character I pointed out, so has not completely abandoned the idea of the traditional view of the dangerous temptress even as yes, we aren't getting the more nerdish ideal of the sexy mannequin we got in the Berman years. I think that Disco has certainly moved beyond TOS and the Berman era, but still probably has a bit of a ways to go, IMO, before say it reaches the more realistic levels that series like Babylon 5 and Farscape or even the more recent Killjoys have where it comes to the characterization of women and their sexuality in a science fiction setting.

 

[UssGlenn]

I have to say, this debate has reaffirmed my theory that we as a society are on the verge of a major shift towards prudishness.

 

[FormerLurker]

I have to say, this debate has reaffirmed my theory that we as a society are on the verge of a major shift towards prudishness.

Already there. All adult bookstores/video rental outlets have been banished from middle America, Time's Square was turned into a candy store, and the content of the majority of sexually oriented adult entertainment is some variety of extreme, often BDSM-lite, non-standard penetration. Classic 'vanilla' sex is considered boring by the makers, and they want their audience to crave content that is borderline illegal.

Prudishness is nothing but a thin veil of judgmental pseudo-modesty barely hiding the worst of our most base and draconian sexual desires.

 

[fireproof78]

I find valuing modesty more refreshing than anything else.

I'm sure that makes me a prude to someone.

 

[Danja]

60s it was miniskirts and meaningless roles (Uhura), 80/90s it was nice looking set dressing with a character they didn't know what to do with (Troi), 90s/00s it was full on sex (Seven)

Not all the time.

Seven wears a SF uniform in "Relativity":

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[fireproof78]

Seven wears a SF uniform in "Relativity":

And it looks just fine on her.

 

[Danja]

And it looks just fine on her.

I think you'll like her in Picard:

New Seven's promo still from ST: Picard:

Another picture of Seven of Nine in ST: Picard.

 

[fireproof78]

I think you'll like her in Picard:

That and the Romulans might actually get me to watch Picard.

 

[FPAlpha]

Not all the time.

Seven wears a SF uniform in "Relativity":

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So did Troi in season 6 and onwards and it did wonders for her character when she suddenly became "professional" and true part of the crew by becoming a visible member of Starfleet. Sirtis talks about this change at length and it was long overdue and it should have been done with Seven too as soon as possible once it fit in storywise after she was accepted as part of the crew and gained their trust.

 

[JD]

I always felt the body suits for both Seven and T'Pol were ridiculous, even when I was at the age where they would typically appeal to guys the most. Especially with Seven I really think it did more harm than good, both literally for poor Jeri Ryan, and because it was all people noticed and it tended to overshadow the fact that she was actually a really good character. T'Pol's wasn't quite as bad, but I think the same applies to her, although TBH I don't think she was quite as good a character as Seven.

 

[Danja]

So did Troi in season 6 and onwards and it did wonders for her character when she suddenly became "professional" and true part of the crew by becoming a visible member of Starfleet. Sirtis talks about this change at length and it was long overdue and it should have been done with Seven too as soon as possible once it fit in storywise after she was accepted as part of the crew and gained their trust.

Seven didn't want to completely give up being Borg (she takes a great deal of pride in it).

 

[FPAlpha]

Seven didn't want to completely give up being Borg (she takes a great deal of pride in it).

What's that got to do with her skintight bodysuits and being Borg/part Borg? I know the tried to explain it inshow by helping her heal after some Borg implants were removed but after a while that excuse was just superflous.

Let's face it.. she was eye candy for male audiences, especially teenagers, whom the producers considered their core demographic. When the ratings started to drop their solution was to sex it up, plain and simple.

As i said, it would have been cool to properly induct her into Starfleet after a season or two and give her the uniform. It would show character progression and integrate her even more into the crew (and allow Ryan to maybe eat a Burger once in a while )

It's just one of the things Voyager missed to become a unique show and find its own style, as it stands it was just a lesser cousin to TNG when it could have taken Trek to a quite different path.

 

[fireproof78]

Let's face it.. she was eye candy for male audiences, especially teenagers, whom the producers considered their core demographic. When the ratings started to drop their solution was to sex it up, plain and simple.

Sad but true. And, unfortunately, it detracts from Ryan's overall premise.