Best explanation I've heard on why Spock gets emotional. This suggests that Vulcans were telepathic back then.
All Our Yesterdays
- Thread starter Falconer
- Start date
I'd like to believe this and it is almost said as much in the dialog. But I can't imagine if we went back (edit) 30 000 years in time we'd revert to being cavemen, unless the Atavachron thingy changes you somehow to adapt to the past conditions, you learn the old-Englishy way of talking, you get muscles to deal with fighting for survival, you lose some IQ points to enable you to successfully mingle back seamlessly in Vulcan's 5000 year past. Ooh I've almost convinced myself.Best explanation I've heard on why Spock gets emotional. This suggests that Vulcans were telepathic back then.
As to this being fan-fiction like, it really has no more problems than a lot of the other episodes if you examine them that closely.
Something that someone has pointed out is that ATOZ never noticed Spock wasn't an alien. Maybe he was too involved in last minute stuff to worry about it. You think he would have said something though.
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Basically as the series went on the writers we're more determined to find excuses for Spock to become emotional and for Nimoy to be able to emote. All our yesterdays is pretty much a rehash of this side of paradise Mr Spock gets to show his true feelings for a woman. Then in amok time we see him as a primitive because of the pon Farr willing to kill to take a mate. In return to tomorrow Henoch takes control of him and we see him emote. And in is there in truth no Beauty he combines with Kollos so he can emote. But all of those are arguably better episodes with less flaws than all our Yesterdays. The problem with all our Yesterdays as has been noted is very simple why does not Zarabeth return to the Future or why did Spock not to choose stay in the past. The earlier drafts didn't logically address this so they came up with the whole "preparation" thing at the last minute. If Zarabeth had been allowed to return to the Future Spock would have had to give her the exact same speech that he gave Leila about being unable to give her what she needs emotionally. Too bad they didn't have the guts to just let her board the Enterprise and go to another world. or quickly be sent to somewhere else in the past where she would be safe and could find companionship. But sometimes the sad endings work better.
On another episode plot point.... is Alexander from Plato's stepchildren the only alien from A non Federation world rescued and taken aboard the Enterprise? The only thing I like about Plato's stepchildren is Alexander and how he gets to be taken away from the sadistic Platonians. I can't think of another character in the original series no matter how distressing the situation they find themselves where the crew decides to take that person off their world and resettle them presumably on a federation world.
On another episode plot point.... is Alexander from Plato's stepchildren the only alien from A non Federation world rescued and taken aboard the Enterprise? The only thing I like about Plato's stepchildren is Alexander and how he gets to be taken away from the sadistic Platonians. I can't think of another character in the original series no matter how distressing the situation they find themselves where the crew decides to take that person off their world and resettle them presumably on a federation world.
Part One:
In my post number 106 in the thread: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/tos-science-tech-changes.302191/page-6#post-13189776 I discussed the stars Gamma Canaris and Epsilon Canaris in "Methamorposis",
I described the Bayer designations of stars and said that Gamma Canaris and Epsilon Canaris sound like Bayer designations of stars in the constellation Canaris. Except that there is no constellation Canaris in Earth astronomy. I discussed two possible solutions to that. One solution was:
Beta Niobe in "All Our Yesterdays" is another example of a star with a Bayer type designation without being in any constellation in Earth astronomy. So, like Gamma Canaris and Epsilon Canaris, Beta Niobe might possibly be a designation of a star seen in the sky of some Earth colony planet.
So how far from Earth might Beta Niobe be? Presumably Beta Niobe would be close enough to that hypothetical Earth colony to be seen with the naked eye from there. Thus it might be only tens of light years, or possibly hundreds of light years, or possibly a few thousand light years, from that hypothetical Earth colony, depending on how luminous Beta Niobe may be.
Assuming that like all other stars visited in TOS, Beta Niobe must be within the disc of the Milky War Galaxy, it should be less than about 75,000 light years from Earth. The galactic disc probably has a diameter of about 100,000 light years, and Earth is about 26,490 light years, plus or minus about 100 light years, from the center of the galaxy.
There are many problems with time, distance, and speed of various voyages in Star Trek. One common explanation is that different regions of space have different characteristics which multiply or divide the basic speed of a warp factor by various amounts, thus enabling various voyages to take longer, about the same time, or much less time, than would be calculated from the TOS warp speed formula.
But another possible explanation is that there are a number of space warps that starshps can use to disappear from one star system and instantly reappear in another star system, that might be tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of light years away.
So the hypothetical Earth colony that named Beta Niobe might be tens of thousands of light years from Earth, reached through a space warp which spans tens of thousands of light years from a star near Earth to one tens of thousands of light years away.
And maybe the Enterprise was traveling though several space warps right before "All Our Yesterdays", to see where they went to, and appeared somewhere beyond the hypothetical Earth colony mentioned above. And someone working in stellar cartography or astrometrics would have informed Kirk that they were just a few light years from the position of Beta Niobe, a star that is due to go nova soon. Furthermore, Beta Niobe was known to have an inhabited planet Sarpedon, so the Enterprise would then scan Sarpeidon from a distance many light years closer than Sarpeidon had ever been scanned before, and they would discover that there was no trace of the inhabitants of Sarpeidon in the scans, a puzzle that was worth investigating.
So when they arrived at Sarpeidon at the beginning of "All Our Yesterdays" Kirk would make the log entry:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/78.htm
Of course a star that is about to go nova is not likely to have any habitable planets left, if it ever did have any. The star is likely to have killed off any life on any habitable planets while undergoing various changes leading up to going nova.
So maybe Beta Niobe is a binary star, and the brighter star, Beta Niobe A, is the one that is about to go nova, and Sarpeidon might orbit the dimmer star, Beta Niobe B, which might still be shining steadily during its main sequence phase. Beta Nioba B might be far enough from Beta Niobe A that Sarpeidon has been protected so far from the previous changes of Beta Niobe A, but close enough that Sarpeidon will be vaporized when Beta Niobe A woes nova.
Or possibly Sarpeidon might have been moved to the Beta Niobe system comparatively recently by astronomical and geological standards, though possibly many thousands of Earth years ago, and put into orbit by a super advanced civilization.
A star system that is about to go nova should contain a close binary star including a white dwarf star and a more massive star that are orbiting closely together. Close enough together for the white dwarf star to siphon hydrogen off the surface of the other star. This hydrogen piles up on the surface of the white dwarf and eventually undergoes fusion and explodes.
So possibly the bright star in the system is Beta Niobe Aa, closely orbited by a dim white Dwarf Beta Niobe Ab, and orbited at a greater distance by Beta Niobe B, which should probably be a dim red class M star, with the planet Sarpeidon orbiting the red star Beta Niobe B at a very close distance.
Astronomers have now discovered over four thousand exoplanets orbiting various stars. And a few of them are calculated to orbit in the habitable zones of their stars, and thus be potentially habitable planets. The potentially habitable exoplanet with the shortest orbital period and year known so far is TRAPPIST-1 d which orbits the time red star TRAPPIST-1.
TRAPPIST-1 d has an orbital period or planetary year of only 4.05 Earth days, which is only 0.0110881 of earth's orbital period of 365.256 Earth days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...exoplanets_in_the_conservative_habitable_zone
To be continued:
Part Two:
December 28 2019:
It is my belief that the subconscious telepathic influence of millions or billions of highly emotional Vulcan on Vulcan influenced Spock to become more emotional when he was 5,000 years in the past, even across interstellar space.
In part one it was demonstrated that a planet in the habitable zone of its star could have a year as short as 4.05 Earth days. Thus it is possible that Sarpeidon could have a year as short as 4.05 Earth days, which is 0.0110882 Earth years. Thus there could be as many as 90.185185 Sarpeidon years in one Earth year.
In fact Spock does tell Zarabeth how far away Vulcan is:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/78.htm
So possibly Spock told Zarabeth said that Vulcan was millions of Sarpeidon light years away, though it was only thousands of Earth light years away.
If Spock would say "millions of light years" if Sarpeidon was at least 1,000,000 Sarpeidon light years from Vulcan, the distance would be at least 11,088.295 Earth light years.
If Spock would say "millions of light years" only if Sarpeidon was at least 2,000,000 Sarpeidon light years from Vulcan, the distance would be at least 22,176.591 Earth light years.
If Earth is about 26,390 to 26,590 light years from the center of the galaxy, and the galactic disc is about 100,000 light years in diameter, Sarpeidon should not be more than about 73,410 to 73,610 light years from Earth and Vulcan.
If Spock could feel the death of 400 Vulcans on the Intrepid over a distance of light years in "the Immunity Syndrome", and we assume the distance was between 10 and 100 light years, the distance between Vulcan and Sarpeidon should be about 110.88295 to 7,361 times as far.
If the strength of telepathy diminishes with the square of the distance, which seems reasonable, the strength of the telepathic links between Vuclan and Spock on Sarpeidon should be only 1 over 12,295.028 to 1 over 54,184,321 as strong as the link between the Intrepid and Spock. If there were only 400 Vulcans on Vulcan 5,000 years earlier.
But if there were 100,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 Vulcans on Vulcan 5,000 years earlier, their telepathic influence on Spock would thus be between 1.845 and 81,333.69 times as strong as the telepathic influence of the 400 Vulcans on the Intrepid.
So it certainly seems plausible that the subconscious telepathic influence of the emotional Vulcans on Vulcan 5,000 years earlier might have influenced Spock and made him more emotional and less rational.
Sarpeidon's star Beta NIobe is marked on space maps in the TAS episode "The Counter-Clock Incident" and in Star trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991).that apparently show it in the Milky Way Galaxy. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Beta_Niobe
So Beta Niobe and Sarpeidon are probably in our own Milky Way Galaxy. But a theory that Sarpeidon and Beta NIobe could be in another galaxy millions of light years from Vulcan is also possible.
It is possible that a space warp was discovered that enabled instant travel between a star in our galaxy and a distant galaxy, and so a part of that distant galaxy was explored. An Earth colony could have been settled in that distant galaxy, and settlers could have named new constellations in their sky, such as a constellation Niobe, and named a star in it Beta Niobe.
If Spock would say "millions of light years" if Sarpeidon was at least 1,000,000 Earth light years from Vulcan, the nearest galaxy that Sarpeidon could be in would be the Leo T Dwarf Galaxy, 1,370,000 light years from Earth and Vulcan.
If Spock would say "millions of light years" only if Sarpeidon was at least 2,000,000 Earth light years from Vulcan, the nearest galaxy that Sarpeidon could be in would be NGC 185, 2,050,000 light years from Earth and Vulcan.
And of course there are many other galaxies that are millions of light years from Earth.
In my post number 106 in the thread: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/tos-science-tech-changes.302191/page-6#post-13189776 I discussed the stars Gamma Canaris and Epsilon Canaris in "Methamorposis",
I described the Bayer designations of stars and said that Gamma Canaris and Epsilon Canaris sound like Bayer designations of stars in the constellation Canaris. Except that there is no constellation Canaris in Earth astronomy. I discussed two possible solutions to that. One solution was:
Beta Niobe in "All Our Yesterdays" is another example of a star with a Bayer type designation without being in any constellation in Earth astronomy. So, like Gamma Canaris and Epsilon Canaris, Beta Niobe might possibly be a designation of a star seen in the sky of some Earth colony planet.
So how far from Earth might Beta Niobe be? Presumably Beta Niobe would be close enough to that hypothetical Earth colony to be seen with the naked eye from there. Thus it might be only tens of light years, or possibly hundreds of light years, or possibly a few thousand light years, from that hypothetical Earth colony, depending on how luminous Beta Niobe may be.
Assuming that like all other stars visited in TOS, Beta Niobe must be within the disc of the Milky War Galaxy, it should be less than about 75,000 light years from Earth. The galactic disc probably has a diameter of about 100,000 light years, and Earth is about 26,490 light years, plus or minus about 100 light years, from the center of the galaxy.
There are many problems with time, distance, and speed of various voyages in Star Trek. One common explanation is that different regions of space have different characteristics which multiply or divide the basic speed of a warp factor by various amounts, thus enabling various voyages to take longer, about the same time, or much less time, than would be calculated from the TOS warp speed formula.
But another possible explanation is that there are a number of space warps that starshps can use to disappear from one star system and instantly reappear in another star system, that might be tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of light years away.
So the hypothetical Earth colony that named Beta Niobe might be tens of thousands of light years from Earth, reached through a space warp which spans tens of thousands of light years from a star near Earth to one tens of thousands of light years away.
And maybe the Enterprise was traveling though several space warps right before "All Our Yesterdays", to see where they went to, and appeared somewhere beyond the hypothetical Earth colony mentioned above. And someone working in stellar cartography or astrometrics would have informed Kirk that they were just a few light years from the position of Beta Niobe, a star that is due to go nova soon. Furthermore, Beta Niobe was known to have an inhabited planet Sarpedon, so the Enterprise would then scan Sarpeidon from a distance many light years closer than Sarpeidon had ever been scanned before, and they would discover that there was no trace of the inhabitants of Sarpeidon in the scans, a puzzle that was worth investigating.
So when they arrived at Sarpeidon at the beginning of "All Our Yesterdays" Kirk would make the log entry:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/78.htm
Of course a star that is about to go nova is not likely to have any habitable planets left, if it ever did have any. The star is likely to have killed off any life on any habitable planets while undergoing various changes leading up to going nova.
So maybe Beta Niobe is a binary star, and the brighter star, Beta Niobe A, is the one that is about to go nova, and Sarpeidon might orbit the dimmer star, Beta Niobe B, which might still be shining steadily during its main sequence phase. Beta Nioba B might be far enough from Beta Niobe A that Sarpeidon has been protected so far from the previous changes of Beta Niobe A, but close enough that Sarpeidon will be vaporized when Beta Niobe A woes nova.
Or possibly Sarpeidon might have been moved to the Beta Niobe system comparatively recently by astronomical and geological standards, though possibly many thousands of Earth years ago, and put into orbit by a super advanced civilization.
A star system that is about to go nova should contain a close binary star including a white dwarf star and a more massive star that are orbiting closely together. Close enough together for the white dwarf star to siphon hydrogen off the surface of the other star. This hydrogen piles up on the surface of the white dwarf and eventually undergoes fusion and explodes.
So possibly the bright star in the system is Beta Niobe Aa, closely orbited by a dim white Dwarf Beta Niobe Ab, and orbited at a greater distance by Beta Niobe B, which should probably be a dim red class M star, with the planet Sarpeidon orbiting the red star Beta Niobe B at a very close distance.
Astronomers have now discovered over four thousand exoplanets orbiting various stars. And a few of them are calculated to orbit in the habitable zones of their stars, and thus be potentially habitable planets. The potentially habitable exoplanet with the shortest orbital period and year known so far is TRAPPIST-1 d which orbits the time red star TRAPPIST-1.
TRAPPIST-1 d has an orbital period or planetary year of only 4.05 Earth days, which is only 0.0110881 of earth's orbital period of 365.256 Earth days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...exoplanets_in_the_conservative_habitable_zone
To be continued:
Part Two:
December 28 2019:
It is my belief that the subconscious telepathic influence of millions or billions of highly emotional Vulcan on Vulcan influenced Spock to become more emotional when he was 5,000 years in the past, even across interstellar space.
In part one it was demonstrated that a planet in the habitable zone of its star could have a year as short as 4.05 Earth days. Thus it is possible that Sarpeidon could have a year as short as 4.05 Earth days, which is 0.0110882 Earth years. Thus there could be as many as 90.185185 Sarpeidon years in one Earth year.
You mean the planet Vulcan.But that distinction doesn't matter in the scale of things. Earth or Vulcan, it adds up the same: Spock had to be speaking poetically, in-universe, while in-production it was a flat-out mistake.
In fact Spock does tell Zarabeth how far away Vulcan is:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/78.htm
So possibly Spock told Zarabeth said that Vulcan was millions of Sarpeidon light years away, though it was only thousands of Earth light years away.
If Spock would say "millions of light years" if Sarpeidon was at least 1,000,000 Sarpeidon light years from Vulcan, the distance would be at least 11,088.295 Earth light years.
If Spock would say "millions of light years" only if Sarpeidon was at least 2,000,000 Sarpeidon light years from Vulcan, the distance would be at least 22,176.591 Earth light years.
If Earth is about 26,390 to 26,590 light years from the center of the galaxy, and the galactic disc is about 100,000 light years in diameter, Sarpeidon should not be more than about 73,410 to 73,610 light years from Earth and Vulcan.
If Spock could feel the death of 400 Vulcans on the Intrepid over a distance of light years in "the Immunity Syndrome", and we assume the distance was between 10 and 100 light years, the distance between Vulcan and Sarpeidon should be about 110.88295 to 7,361 times as far.
If the strength of telepathy diminishes with the square of the distance, which seems reasonable, the strength of the telepathic links between Vuclan and Spock on Sarpeidon should be only 1 over 12,295.028 to 1 over 54,184,321 as strong as the link between the Intrepid and Spock. If there were only 400 Vulcans on Vulcan 5,000 years earlier.
But if there were 100,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 Vulcans on Vulcan 5,000 years earlier, their telepathic influence on Spock would thus be between 1.845 and 81,333.69 times as strong as the telepathic influence of the 400 Vulcans on the Intrepid.
So it certainly seems plausible that the subconscious telepathic influence of the emotional Vulcans on Vulcan 5,000 years earlier might have influenced Spock and made him more emotional and less rational.
Sarpeidon's star Beta NIobe is marked on space maps in the TAS episode "The Counter-Clock Incident" and in Star trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991).that apparently show it in the Milky Way Galaxy. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Beta_Niobe
So Beta Niobe and Sarpeidon are probably in our own Milky Way Galaxy. But a theory that Sarpeidon and Beta NIobe could be in another galaxy millions of light years from Vulcan is also possible.
It is possible that a space warp was discovered that enabled instant travel between a star in our galaxy and a distant galaxy, and so a part of that distant galaxy was explored. An Earth colony could have been settled in that distant galaxy, and settlers could have named new constellations in their sky, such as a constellation Niobe, and named a star in it Beta Niobe.
If Spock would say "millions of light years" if Sarpeidon was at least 1,000,000 Earth light years from Vulcan, the nearest galaxy that Sarpeidon could be in would be the Leo T Dwarf Galaxy, 1,370,000 light years from Earth and Vulcan.
If Spock would say "millions of light years" only if Sarpeidon was at least 2,000,000 Earth light years from Vulcan, the nearest galaxy that Sarpeidon could be in would be NGC 185, 2,050,000 light years from Earth and Vulcan.
And of course there are many other galaxies that are millions of light years from Earth.
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Spock says Earth was millions of light years away.
I like to think the system was out in the far reaches of known space and that's why the Federation didn't try an evacuation. Some probe picked up the civilisation there and it was too late when Starfleet realised.
OK maybe in the future they can predict a supernova blast to the minute but would you send your top 3 people down to just investigate not to rescue. I mean communicators get broken. Natives capture you.
And what was Kirk doing jumping in to rescue someone with just 3 1/2 hours to spare. If I were Starfleet command I'd have Kirk court-martialled for incompetence for this mission. Maybe Spock too,
Nothing justified the risk/
I like to think the system was out in the far reaches of known space and that's why the Federation didn't try an evacuation. Some probe picked up the civilisation there and it was too late when Starfleet realised.
OK maybe in the future they can predict a supernova blast to the minute but would you send your top 3 people down to just investigate not to rescue. I mean communicators get broken. Natives capture you.
And what was Kirk doing jumping in to rescue someone with just 3 1/2 hours to spare. If I were Starfleet command I'd have Kirk court-martialled for incompetence for this mission. Maybe Spock too,
Nothing justified the risk/
You mean the planet Vulcan.
But that distinction doesn't matter in the scale of things. Earth or Vulcan, it adds up the same: Spock had to be speaking poetically, in-universe, while in-production it was a flat-out mistake.
Spock's attention to detailed precision is the first sign that he is starting to slip away from his discipline to logic(unless Beta Niobe is in a different galaxy.
)
SOMEONE: "Hey Fred, should we send this to Kellam Deforest to check for science?"
FRED: "Who gives a f'k, it's fine, NEXT!"
Something that's bugging me about this episode: The planet's natives are all being sent into the past, but the question about all these people changing history (which they would, just by being there) is never dealt with.
I believe Nimoy misspoke. The relevant lines of Spock's dialogue in the last three drafts of the script, including the shooting one, are:
Bah. This episode is just another puzzle box trap. The characters have to get home or die, that's it. There's nothing interesting going on except Spock going primitive. If they stay in the past, they die. If Zarabeth comes with them, she dies. There are no decisions to be made, no hard choices for the characters, because their decisions are made for them by the situation. It's a bore.
^^^The outline is even less involving than the final episode. Surprising, given Aroeste's first story sale ("Is There in Truth No Beauty") started with a very professional outline. http://www.orionpressfanzines.com/articles/a_handful_of_dust.htm
Sir Rhosis
EDIT TO ADD: My eyes skimmed over your Christmas username on first posting my response. Of course, you've read the outline, Maurice.
Sir Rhosis
EDIT TO ADD: My eyes skimmed over your Christmas username on first posting my response. Of course, you've read the outline, Maurice.
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They tried to deal with this in one of the early drafts by positing that time was compartmentalized: it was "different" in the past, and running at different speeds, relative to that in the library.
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There were at least two outlines, two first drafts, and multiple "finals." I think Aroeste and the production staff worked pretty hard.
YMMV.
Maybe that is another aspect with the "preparation" process. Something about it makes you irrelevant in the past such that no matter what you do, it doesn't change time.
I respond to that with a theory in my revised post # 44.
I also respond to that in my post # 44.
You mean the planet Vulcan.
I also respond to that in my post # 44.
Spock's attention to detailed precision is the first sign that he is starting to slip away from his discipline to logic
My post number 44 suggests two theories about the location of Sarpeidon, and being in another galaxy is one of them.
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Well, Leonard Nimoy said "millions of light years," so we have to rationalize it somehow. I don't think we need to embroider the story with space warp theories or short, weird light years. The simplest workable explanation is usually the best one: Spock was speaking figuratively.
He wanted to impress the notion of great distance upon a native who might not know what a light year is, so he went big, because saying "dozens" doesn't sound as far. And he is under the primitive influence of this time trip, so he is not presently the Spock of "That Which Survives," who complained about miniscule digits after the decimal point. Right now he's losing his tendency to care about details like that.
Two points here! The crew refer to Sarpeidon and so does Atoz so Kirk and crew must have listened to Sarpeidon broadcasts or Sarpeidon has had alien visitors before! Plus just how do you pronounce Aroeste? I used to think that Jean was said as the French way but then later I learned it is a lady with French other names instead of all!
JB
JB
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