the part where they literally said they had 16 hours before the Final Order began their attack
Spoilers Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Grading & Discussion
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the part where they literally said they had 16 hours before the Final Order began their attack
Did they go to Coruscant in one of the light speed hops? It looked like they went through a city at one point and I was hoping for at least one Coruscant reference, but probably not.
ty. I've only seen it once.
There’s no imagination allowed now. We have to follow whatever the behind the scenes folks say, without exception. Or else the Canon God shall strike you down!
the real problem is that we get the impression that they just forgot about the detail.. that the X wing, like bringing back Palpatine himself.. were hail mary passes.. to make it all work. They don't .. yet.. I'd rather have hail mary passes.. successful or unsuccessful, rather than a boring filmThere’s no imagination allowed now. We have to follow whatever the behind the scenes folks say, without exception. Or else the Canon God shall strike you down!
So some thoughts. This movie was better than Last Jedi, but that's setting the bar very low. Abrams did his best to clean up Johnson's mess, but unfortunately, he went with a lousy ending. Again, Rey is the ultimate Mary Sue. All powerful, and now she takes down Palpatine.
Or did she? This trilogy as a whole is an absolute failure. Why? Because if it didn't exist, nothing changes. Ultimately, all it did was tell the exact same story and put the galaxy in the exact same place it was at the end of ROTJ.
But I guess that's to be expected because Abrams made Episode 7 a soft remake of Episode 4.
The difference is that this trilogy introduced the Woke Force, which is more powerful than the regular Force. It also undid the whole point of the Chosen One, since Anakin didn't kill Palpatine at all.
No explanation as to how the Emperor got back.
Finn became a little more interesting, but they didn't follow anything up. It was all about Rey usurping everything that was done before.
I wonder how this movie would have been had Carrie Fisher not died. But ultimately, if you divorce this trilogy from the rest of Star Wars canon, you lose nothing.
At the end of ROTJ, the good guys won and the empire was destroyed. At the end of ROS, the good guys won and the empire was destroyed.
I give Abrams credit for trying. The Wedge cameo was a good idea for example. I liked the Endgame moment when the good guys arrived in force, but where the hell were they before?
Is Finn now a Force sensitive? If so, why not make that a major plot line? THAT would have been interesting.
But I guess then Rey couldn't accomplish everything by herself.
If Force healing was a thing, why didn't anyone help Padme? Why didn't anyone help Anakin? Why didn't Luke grow a new hand?
If skype dueling was a thing, why didn't Vader hunt the Jedi that way? Why didn't the Emperor skype kill everyone?
Why didn't Rey disappear into the Force when she was dead? Why did Rey make out with the guy that killed Han Solo?
They could have had such a better ending that truly tied in the entire franchise and maybe even topped Endgame's "on your left" moment. This shouldn't have been Rey by herself. We should have seen all the Sith and all the Jedi fighting it out together. But no. Rey by herself crosses a couple of lightsabers and usurps the Skywalker name. How woke.
Or did she? This trilogy as a whole is an absolute failure. Why? Because if it didn't exist, nothing changes. Ultimately, all it did was tell the exact same story and put the galaxy in the exact same place it was at the end of ROTJ.
But I guess that's to be expected because Abrams made Episode 7 a soft remake of Episode 4.
The difference is that this trilogy introduced the Woke Force, which is more powerful than the regular Force. It also undid the whole point of the Chosen One, since Anakin didn't kill Palpatine at all.
No explanation as to how the Emperor got back.
Finn became a little more interesting, but they didn't follow anything up. It was all about Rey usurping everything that was done before.
I wonder how this movie would have been had Carrie Fisher not died. But ultimately, if you divorce this trilogy from the rest of Star Wars canon, you lose nothing.
At the end of ROTJ, the good guys won and the empire was destroyed. At the end of ROS, the good guys won and the empire was destroyed.
I give Abrams credit for trying. The Wedge cameo was a good idea for example. I liked the Endgame moment when the good guys arrived in force, but where the hell were they before?
Is Finn now a Force sensitive? If so, why not make that a major plot line? THAT would have been interesting.
But I guess then Rey couldn't accomplish everything by herself.
If Force healing was a thing, why didn't anyone help Padme? Why didn't anyone help Anakin? Why didn't Luke grow a new hand?
If skype dueling was a thing, why didn't Vader hunt the Jedi that way? Why didn't the Emperor skype kill everyone?
Why didn't Rey disappear into the Force when she was dead? Why did Rey make out with the guy that killed Han Solo?
They could have had such a better ending that truly tied in the entire franchise and maybe even topped Endgame's "on your left" moment. This shouldn't have been Rey by herself. We should have seen all the Sith and all the Jedi fighting it out together. But no. Rey by herself crosses a couple of lightsabers and usurps the Skywalker name. How woke.
So part of the drop between TFA's revenue and TLJ's wasn't due to TFA's issues*? (I'm seeing, in general, a bit too much scapegoating of TLJ...) I almost didn't bother with TLJ because of TFA and there were plenty of articles put out between December 2015 and November 2017 pointing out TFA, hints at TLJ, how there was no plan between the ST revealed at that time as well...
Disney, after 6 years, got its $4 Bil back and then some anyway, so the franchise is definitely doing okay. (per official news sites like CNBC - 2018, and tabloids like Bleeding Cool - 2017, et al)
* Yes, TLJ scared some people away even tough it can also be argued Luke was in-character. TLJ has its own problems, including a couple scenes that look like choppy editing was involved or needed another draft...
There’s no imagination allowed now. We have to follow whatever the behind the scenes folks say, without exception. Or else the Canon God shall strike you down!
IMHO and YMMV, imagination and keeping foes alive or more interesting involves bending continuity (e.g. the Borg) it can work well, though going back to early-TNG days its Borg episodes still treat the Collective as a single species and not gestalt of numerous ones (TBOBW making an exception since Dr Crusher and pals are quick to myopically call the Borg a single race again in "I Borg"... then again, some of season 5's scripting is worse than season 1's so maybe they meant to say "species" or even allude to multiple species and races but didn't.
But if doing a prequel and watching everything in chronological order, doesn't that add the extra hurdle of keeping continuity (sufficiently or better)? Every franchise that's done this ends up creating more questions than anything they're trying to fill in any gaps for. ENT was not immune. Everyone had a field day with "Solo" and "Rogue One"...
Then again, someone watching 60s Trek and 1987-2005 Trek might not be aware of issues until a rewatch, or remembering an older detail a newer series forgot about. It is possible that critics of prequels in general (like me) could be... high strung... with expectation since continuity is invariably going to get dinged or broken at some point and we should overlook it to see what else might be better in the episode doing the dings and breaking?
But in a show that creates continuity, why would it become lackadaisical in its own approach without doing an iota of research? Why not just scribble any script with any character doing any thing that will be discarded the next? Won't more and more viewers then start to criticize cheap writing if they see a pilot and a handful of episodes with world building but see any old thing happen next? Even Kirk contriving to save the day and be everything to everyone because nobody else was allowed a chance to shine. That digression could also become a post of of its own, I recall some examples but need to rewatch... and this is the Star Wars room, but the same rules of drama and scripting an ostensibly continuing saga invariably apply?
The funniest part is that none of this is new and the core values are still worthwhile and intact. I think...
Disagree. The Last Jedi was the best thing to come out of Lucasfilm since Empire Strikes Back.
Disagree. The Last Jedi was the best thing to come out of Lucasfilm since Rogue One.
I didn't realize Rian Johnson was on this message board.
Force Awakens was SO good compared to the PT.
I liked the controversial Luke stuff in TLJ. I was 11 in 1977 and 51 then. I get it. We reach, Luke and I! Though I thought as a film it was meh.
This new one was SO retread-y. Backtracking from Rey's being a nobody, really sucks. That was a really cool thing in VIII. This was a greatest hits. Could've had a real script with real people and emotions. Why not bring back Kasdan? Let Kylo keep the promotion he earned last flick, but nope, right back to being a teen Vader-wannabe, even down to the helmet again. I left feeling entertained, but think what could have been, instead of "over-the-top-bad-guy-gets-defeated-again."
(Whose still being alive kind of negates the middle trilogy.)
I liked the controversial Luke stuff in TLJ. I was 11 in 1977 and 51 then. I get it. We reach, Luke and I! Though I thought as a film it was meh.
This new one was SO retread-y. Backtracking from Rey's being a nobody, really sucks. That was a really cool thing in VIII. This was a greatest hits. Could've had a real script with real people and emotions. Why not bring back Kasdan? Let Kylo keep the promotion he earned last flick, but nope, right back to being a teen Vader-wannabe, even down to the helmet again. I left feeling entertained, but think what could have been, instead of "over-the-top-bad-guy-gets-defeated-again."
(Whose still being alive kind of negates the middle trilogy.)
oh no they're on to me
When you start trading common sense and creativity for continuity, you're going to end up with a less than stellar product. It doesn't mean you chuck everything, at the same time, you have to be smart. Entertainment value should be the the ultimate goal, not lining up minutiae.
YMMV.
But lots of people say, among other things, that she isn't one.
Johnson made no mess. He was trying to fix the mess, (many-)uninteresting mystery box cliches, and lame paint-by-numbers flick Abrams put in. Indeed, there was no way it could be fixed. But never mind previous articles, here's one that's another jaw-dropper:
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-force-awakens-jj-abrams-no-changes/
Anyone have a big bucket of popcorn?
Paint by numbers; the moment the ships went to the biggest death star base ever was when TFA fell apart.
No, it's Force on Steroids and Crack since so many new powers (not all mentioned in the de-canonized books and comics) that started to stretch credibility, particularly in TLJ. If they're even more rampantly used in TRoS...
Poor scripting? Some TV shows and comics bring back the big nasty for no cogent reason but we ostensibly live in a more evolved and sophisticated age, so why aren't the scripts following in that claim?
And people still say this movie is better than TLJ? Wow.
Pretty much. Same goes for the prequel trilogy as well. Even ROTJ was a sufficiently shameless mess.
So the Sequel Sequel Trilogy will show a shiny new order out of nowhere with no explanation.
Not really. Especially as TLJ was the movie that set the stage for anyone becoming Force sensitive or a Force user...
What, we're expected to be slaves to continuity? This new development is the pinnacle of brilliance and Padme and Luke and Anakin are just wankers. No? (Absolutely, no!)
It's not "woke" in its current euphemistic state, it's simply lame scripting. Other franchises and movies have had strong female characters without these plot problems. Doesn't matter what the gender is if the scripting for said character is uneven or bad. And now I'm going to go watch Alien and Aliens. Ripley, believe it or not, was a strong character - decades before the claim of "no strong female characters" existed fad took off. But it makes sense; millennials and gen-Z just won't watch older shows because they're not in stereo or color or 3D or have lush special effects or whatever.
The 'problems' (IMO) with Disney Star Wars I put primarily at the feet of Abrams, Kennedy, and ultimately Bog Iger. Certainly Rian Johnson did his part to mess things up, but it was Abrams who started it with TFA and then bounced. Johnson was not under an obligation to carry on with whatever Abrams loose outlines were, and Kennedy was okay with that, and that's how we got TLJ which subverted and cut away too much to leave Episode IX in a good place. And then Johnson left his mess for Trevorrow to clean up. Unfortunately we didn't get to see what Trevorrow would've done with Episode IX, but I'm glad Abrams did come back, because he needed to own what he started. I'm not saying that I thought Trevorrow would've been an automatic savior though. I liked Jurassic World more than I thought I would, but Fallen Kingdom (which he wrote and produced) was a poor retread of The Lost World which also has written that franchise into a bit of a corner.
I think Lucasfilm and Kennedy didn't have a bad idea in originally planning to have each episode directed by someone different, just like the original trilogy. It could've kept things fresh and supposedly, with Generation X directors, more contemporary and that could appeal to younger viewers and grow the fan base. But the choices made to do that didn't work, their reaction to fan disappointment embolden detractors instead of dousing them. Some of the divided state of Star Wars could've been avoided if there had been a stronger, unifying vision of these films, that they were all going somewhere logical, that a majority of fans (even if they still had issues) could accept, like with the much derided prequels. For the most part, even back in the day, I didn't see as much hate for Revenge of the Sith because it (while it was flawed) it felt more like an organic culmination of the story. Lucas did somewhat have it easier in that the ending was already sort of there, the challenge was just filling up three movies to get to that end. The sequel trilogy and Rey's story was much more open ended. They could've done whatever they wanted with her and the new heroes, as well as the galaxy, which obviously presented a whole new set of creative challenges.
I don't know if it's true but I was listening to Midnight's Edge and he said that the TROS that made it to the theater is the Iger Cut of the film. That Lucas and Abrams had wanted to use the Son (played by Dr. Who's Matt Smith), from the Clone Wars, as the big bad, but that Disney felt that character was too obscure and he wanted Palpatine. I've also seen Abrams claim it was Palpatine all along, and while I am doubtful that was set in stone, I can see Abrams wanting it to have Palpatine involved, if not physically like in TROS, but as Rey's grandfather. I was watching a persuasive 2017 You Tube video that made some good points on that theory.
I think Lucasfilm and Kennedy didn't have a bad idea in originally planning to have each episode directed by someone different, just like the original trilogy. It could've kept things fresh and supposedly, with Generation X directors, more contemporary and that could appeal to younger viewers and grow the fan base. But the choices made to do that didn't work, their reaction to fan disappointment embolden detractors instead of dousing them. Some of the divided state of Star Wars could've been avoided if there had been a stronger, unifying vision of these films, that they were all going somewhere logical, that a majority of fans (even if they still had issues) could accept, like with the much derided prequels. For the most part, even back in the day, I didn't see as much hate for Revenge of the Sith because it (while it was flawed) it felt more like an organic culmination of the story. Lucas did somewhat have it easier in that the ending was already sort of there, the challenge was just filling up three movies to get to that end. The sequel trilogy and Rey's story was much more open ended. They could've done whatever they wanted with her and the new heroes, as well as the galaxy, which obviously presented a whole new set of creative challenges.
I don't know if it's true but I was listening to Midnight's Edge and he said that the TROS that made it to the theater is the Iger Cut of the film. That Lucas and Abrams had wanted to use the Son (played by Dr. Who's Matt Smith), from the Clone Wars, as the big bad, but that Disney felt that character was too obscure and he wanted Palpatine. I've also seen Abrams claim it was Palpatine all along, and while I am doubtful that was set in stone, I can see Abrams wanting it to have Palpatine involved, if not physically like in TROS, but as Rey's grandfather. I was watching a persuasive 2017 You Tube video that made some good points on that theory.
For me, I'd rather they tell a good story than waste time trying to make things fit together. Especially when you get into having multiple creators creating content across decades.
Get the broad strokes right, screw the minutiae.
"J.J. Abrams claims nothing in The Last Jedi derailed the sequel trilogy plan, and a close examination of the films proves that's right."
Of course not. You can't derail a plan that you don't have.
(And I'm not saying they should have had one either. I don't care if there's a plan, just so long as I enjoy the result.)
Of course not. You can't derail a plan that you don't have.
(And I'm not saying they should have had one either. I don't care if there's a plan, just so long as I enjoy the result.)
Very true!
Even I will admit too many fiddly details can cause more problems; too much minutiae can lead to bigger continuity violations for the same reason. But the other side of the argument also has the same constraint: Having, for example, technology in prequels that weren't in shows that the prequel is shoehorned into... that's a flip side of the argument because there's zero common sense applied to that as well. It's also a bear to sit and wade through x episodes to see if the technology is given a proper write-out or if it's dropped. It's so much easier to not think into detail into sequels - like "Oh, TNG doesn't have 'transwarp'? Oh, they probably took some of the schematics from the Excelsior and introduced them into the next class starship." and, voila, issue resolved. Prequels are an entirely different beast, and in some cases it's just a sheer lack of common sense to put in anything shiny and new without a cogent long-term plan. Sorta like how the Sequel Trilogy turned out, as if it had anything built up from the start (which it really didn't, but it's easier to say "Oh the new order got built up and here it is, so here's Han and nostalgia" as opposed to showing its buildup (even I-III showed a buildup to what IV started, amazing considering even IV was a retcon by 1980!)A good story, especially for continuity that exists, still needs to work with the bigger aspects and not put those aside just to write in any old thing for an ostensibly "jaw dropper moment". Smaller continuity references can become a pain and create bigger issues as a result, that's true. Nothing's 100% but if the script gets around the plot holes with something genuinely interesting and not rabidly-paced silliness for the sake of keeping the audience off track...
Disagree. The Last Jedi was the best thing to come out of Lucasfilm since Rogue One.
I disagree with your disagreement AND FURTHERMORE
