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Spoilers Crisis on Infinite Earths Discussion (CW Event Spoiler Thread)

Ha! OK, I actually haven't seen Titans yet and assumed it was Dick Grayson.
Ah, gotcha!

Still, I definitely got the impression that that world was destroyed by the anti-matter wave, which it obviously won't be moving forward.
Agreed. Unless it was another alt Earth where the Titans look the same but there's one little difference like it rains doughnuts or something. Honestly, it didn't even look like they shot new footage for the Titans, it looked like old footage or outtakes or something. Hank has a light source on him but Robin's "glow" is clearly added in post, and neither of them seem to be reacting to anything specific at all.
 
It’s been stated by TPTB in a recent interview (saw it on Reddit, can’t find it just now) that they’re filming pickups over the break to be incorporated into the final segments; and that additional unannounced cameos could / would / should be filmed as well.

So what other new cameos do we have in part 3?

- Huntress and Oracle (voice only) from Birds of Prey
- Lucifer (yaaaaasss!)
- Jim Corrigan / Spectre from Constantine

And I totally think that many of these cameo characters also filmed “bookend” scenes when they filmed the segments we’ve already seen, such that when (nearly?) everyone is restored to their Earths, we’ll see them as proof that it’s happened.

Mark

Corrigan's appearance wasn't a cameo.

Constantine's Jim Corrigan was played by Emmett Scanlan, and John was quick to point out that the Corrigan he, Diggle, and Mia met in Purgatory isn't the one he knows (which opens up a whole other can of worms).

Incidentally, Dina Meyer and Marc Guggenheim kind of low-key spoiled her voice cameo in last night's episode on Twitter on Monday, although I can't figure out if it was an accident or intentional.
 
I was very annoyed that Lex Luthor replaced Routh's Superman. I loved seeing him back and looked forward to having a bigger role with a reduced cast. Despite Kevin Smith keep saying Cryor's Luthor is the best ever, I'm kinda lukewarm on it.
I was very annoyed that Lex Luthor replaced Routh's Superman. I loved seeing him back and looked forward to having a bigger role with a reduced cast.

Same. That was the worst part of the episode for me. I absolutely love Cryer's Luthor, but not at the expense of Routh's Superman. I really wanted to see him, but we only got small glimpses of it. Not having Routh's Superman play a major role was such a mistake.

I hope they are smart enough to restore Routh's version at the end and set up some sort of crossover in the Superman series.

That was a mistake they made with Flash. We never got a really good story of Flash 90 and Barry. The death of Flash 90 would have resonated even more if the more modern audience knew what was up.

Regarding that, Flash90's sacrifice was the cop out everyone saw coming. It was talked about on these boards, but even if these boards didn't exist, I think the majority of people here are smart enough to find the loophole about "the Flash must die" commentary. It was so obvious that they shouldn't have focused so hard on Earth 1 Barry dying.

I would really love to see Routh and Hoechlin establish a bit of a friendship on that show at some point. Not often, but once in awhile, kind of like how the Silver and Golden Age Supermen were friends.

Other thoughts--Batwoman being the paragon of anything was forced and contrived. Sorry, but in all the universes, the idea that Batwoman represents courage is ridiculous. Pretty much every single version of Wonder Woman must embody that more. I get it--rights issues and Batwoman has a show, but so what?

I guess it looks like Oliver will be the new Spectre. Maybe he does that for awhile, and then gets his happy ending with Felicity.
 
And regarding Jefferson, I felt his role was too light too. They are cramming so much stuff, which is fine, but perhaps this might have been better served with even more episodes. It's a very big story. It made me think though--how would Jefferson do if say, his Earth was just gone and he was forced to start a new life on Earth 1?

The dynamic of the series would change but it would be fascinating TV.
 
I fell out of Arrowverse fandom quite a while ago because as the shows get older the quality seems to dip extremely (Flash had a brilliant first season and gradually degraded, the first few seasons of Arrow were awesome, then not so much etc.).

Decided to still check out Crisis even though i missed details obviously but it didn't bother me too much.

Honestly i'm not impressed yet - it's just another crisis no matter how many times they repeat how many universes and Earths have been destroyed i just couldn't bring myself to care - i don't know who said it to Kara when she watched her Earth being destroyed as a digital animation but he/she summed it up that it doesn't have the same impact when you watch it on a screen.

I know it's been a big deal for a while now that Oliver Queen would die (have to admit i was a bit sad when i saw his and Felicitiy's farewell scene on Youtube) but so far it's just a bunch of smaller and bigger cameos from the entire DC catalogue (which i admit is impressive putting these scenes together and getting the actors to do it) but it stil is a cameo driven thing for me with some filler story in between (now they suddenly need 7 "Paragons" which will miraculously save everybody :rolleyes:).

To be honest.. i am a Marvel man, love the MCU but the Netflix shows, especially Daredevil and Punisher, blow both the MCU and the Arrowverse out of the water quality and acting wise so maybe my benchmark is set a bit too high to enjoy Arrowverse shows.
 
Lex doing what he did was pretty heavily telegraphed, so getting upset about it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I don't even mind so much that he did it, but maybe it would have worked better if both Supermen were paragons, and he replaced Hoechlin. It's not Lex doing it, since he is awesome, but it's the loss of Routh's Superman that's upsetting. What little dialogue Routh had was well done, and it would have been incredible to see him play a major role. I also want to see Lex play a major role as well. I just think they made a bad call with Routh.
 
^ Again, what Lex did was heavily telegraphed; it was also spoiled by officially released promo photos.

Anybody who was actually paying attention could've figured out not to get attached to Routh!Supes, so being upset by his being erased and replaced by Lex is silly.
 
Anybody who was actually paying attention could've figured out not to get attached to Routh!Supes, so being upset by his being erased and replaced by Lex is silly.

Not everyone looks at every spoiler photo. And anyone who was actually paying attention would have seen just how good Routh's Superman was, and that he was painfully underused. It's a waste of a talent.
 
Oh, Routh might show up again. If the writers will it, he simply switched places with Luthor on that ship where we know that no one really died permanently.

SuperRouth seems to be filling the role of Kal-L in the COIE comics, who had a pivotal role in the climax of that story.
 
Not everyone looks at every spoiler photo. And anyone who was actually paying attention would have seen just how good Routh's Superman was, and that he was painfully underused. It's a waste of a talent.

Promo photos aren't spoilers.

And you getting (re)attached to Routh!Supes is not a valid argument against Lex replacing him as a Paragon.
 
Wow. That was intense. It had some of the same problems as Part 1, being too rushed and cluttered in plot terms, with Pariah still being really underdeveloped. But it did have a lot of excellent character moments that were very satisfying and potent.

The fate of Flash-90... wow. It was entirely predictable that Barry-90 would sacrifice himself for his sort-of son, but it was still a deeply powerful moment, especially with the Elfman theme music supporting it. Flash-90 really was underused in Elseworlds, and I'm glad he got a bigger payoff here. Of course, the moment would be a lot less potent for viewers who aren't familiar with the 1990 show. As far as viewers of the current Flash are concerned, it would've probably been more engaging if the sacrifice had been Jay Garrick, an alternate Flash they've been invested in for years. Having this other lookalike guy substituted for him must be weird for those viewers. But for me, it was such an overpowering moment that I needed to step away from the computer for a few minutes to recover. Of all the superheroes seen here outside of cameos, Flash-90 is the oldest veteran, and elements of his show have been extensively homaged and revived in the modern Flash over the years. So in a way, he's the forerunner (pun intended) of this whole superhero multiverse, and seeing him fulfill the iconic role of Barry Allen in Crisis, make the ultimate sacrifice to save those who've come after him, was deeply appropriate and powerful.

As for Black Lightning, we still don't know for sure what number his Earth is, although it was implied that it was Earth-73, because that's the world we saw destroyed on the Waverider's screen in the scene just before BL showed up. It's unclear why they'd use that number for a character introduced in 1977, though. Anyway, he was kind of swamped by the plot demands in his first big scene, but I'm glad they gave him and Barry that bonding moment built around their similar histories.

Nice interaction between Kara and Kate too, recasting the classic dynamic of Batman being prepared to take down Superman with kryptonite, but working through it with trust and understanding and friendship. It did a good job of solidifying the relationship that the producers are setting up as the replacement for the Oliver-Barry dynamic. If they do merge Earth-1 and Earth-38, I could live with that as long as it brings more Supergirl/Batwoman interaction, although as I've been saying, the shows never really connect anymore outside the crossover events, so it wouldn't make much difference. (I mean, the Flash gang only just now learned that Earth-2 was destroyed, and barely had time to react to it.)

The Lucifer cameo was a terrific surprise. I've thought for years that it would be cool to see Constantine cross into Lucifer's universe and get some interaction between the two, and even though it was brief, it was fun to see. Of course, it raises some interesting theological questions, since the supernatural rules pertaining to angels are quite different between Constantine and Lucifer. In the former, angels were invisible/inaudible to mortals and strictly forbidden to intervene in human affairs, and fallen angels had black wings; also Lucifer was explicitly evil and sought to corrupt souls. In Lucifer, angels can interact freely with humans, their wing color is unrelated to their status, and Lucifer resents being blamed for corrupting the souls that his job is to punish for their self-corruption. Also, the version of Hell seen in Legends of Tomorrow last season is quite different from the one seen in Lucifer, so there are different Hells in different universes. Now, if the rules for divine phenomena are different in different universes, does that mean that God is not overarching, that each one has its own distinct version of God? Does it mean there are universes without God, or at least without the Judeo-Christian one? There are a lot of implications here that many religious people would probably be uncomfortable with if they thought them through. Though personally I'm glad to treat Lucifer's rather Biblically literal cosmology as something specific to its own reality and not binding on the Arrowverse or other continuities.

So Lucifer leads us to Purgatory, and thus to Oliver... and Oliver Queen becomes the Spectre. Which makes perfect sense in a way -- it explains the green hood. It's also an interesting way for Oliver to "die" while still leaving room for Amell to come back from time to time. Although I'm not sure I'm happy with the idea. I loathe the character of the Spectre. I hate the way he brutally, sadistically murders criminals under the pretense of "divine justice" -- it's a disgusting morality and cosmology. Oliver spent eight years growing out of his original mission of vengeance and murder to embrace a more heroic, positive calling, and becoming the Spectre -- using the Spectre's methods -- would be a massive backslide. Although maybe it doesn't have to be that way; maybe his experiences as the Green Arrow will make him a nobler, less sadistic Spectre. I hope so.

So the seven symbols did represent the Paragons after all. We still have to figure out which one is which, though we know which one was Superman (the one Lex defaced), and the Flash symbol is pretty obvious. Anyway, now we have an explanation for those trailer shots showing Lex alongside the other heroes. They also showed Ryan Choi with a beard, so I assume a significant amount of time is going to pass for the gang at the Vanishing Point (where no time passes, but never mind) before the last two episodes.

Gee, what a coincidence that across the entire multiverse, four of the Paragons came from Earth-1 (Flash, White Canary, Batwoman, Ryan Choi) and two from Earth-38 (Supergirl and Martian Manhunter). And with Lex replacing Superman-96, that leaves all seven of them from those two Earths.

I think one thing that surprises me is that the cliffhanger here depends on the Vanishing Point, a leftover concept from the much-reviled first season of Legends of Tomorrow (though also used in season 2 as the Legion of Doom's HQ). It's been years since it was mentioned, and it's unexpected for an LoT concept to be so crucial when the crossover is so light on Legends (just Sara and Ray, plus alternate Rory and "Leonard"). But I guess it makes sense that a place "outside of time and space" is the only refuge when the entire multiverse has been destroyed. (By the way, the Arrowverse Wiki's Multiverse article is funny right now -- every single Earth in the list currently has "(destroyed by antimatter)" after it. Somebody went to a lot of trouble overnight to do that, even though it's obviously never going to stick.)

Incidentally, it occurs to me that Elseworlds set up Psycho-Pirate as a player in CoIE -- he was the one who gave the final speech that quoted the CoIE tagline -- but he's been totally absent here. Could they not get the actor back, or did they just decide to go in a different direction? I wonder if we'll ever find out what his connection to the event was. (In this continuity, not the comics.)


So let's see. Shows/movies referenced so far:

Batman '66
The Flash '90
Smallville
Birds of Prey
Titans
Lucifer
Black Lightning

Batman '89
Superman Returns
(and indirectly the "Donnerverse," sort of)

Still a lot left that might be referenced. We know a glimpse of Stargirl is upcoming. Best bets otherwise might be Lynda Carter Wonder Woman, Helen Slater Supergirl, Lois and Clark, Gotham, and maybe Krypton or the '88 Superboy. Some kind of reference to the Nolan films or the DCEU would be interesting to get.



Where, to add an extra dash of confusion, Conroy was playing Christian Bale's Batman.

And in LEGO Batman he took over from Troy Baker.



Also, I agree, they should have labeled this as "Crisis on Infinite Earths" rather than labeling it as each individual show.

They did, as far as the actual episodes were concerned. But from a production, logistics, and scheduling standpoint, they had to be made and distributed as installments of the respective individual shows. It'd be nice in theory if they could really make it as a separate standalone miniseries, but as long as it's being produced in the middle of the ongoing TV season for all these different shows, they can't just stop everything for long enough to do it separately.


So basically Oliver's body was on Earth 1, his soul was on earth 666 (I see what they did there), and now his eyes turn green? I think that whole story could have been an episode on it's own because they rushed it.

No, Earth-666 (where the Lucifer TV series is set, appropriately) was just where they went to get access to Purgatory. Although as I said above, the different theologies of Constantine and Lucifer do imply that the different universes have distinct afterlives.
 
Other thoughts--Batwoman being the paragon of anything was forced and contrived. Sorry, but in all the universes, the idea that Batwoman represents courage is ridiculous. Pretty much every single version of Wonder Woman must embody that more. I get it--rights issues and Batwoman has a show, but so what?

.

I disagree. As much as I love Wonder Woman, the unpowered Kate Kane better embodies the idea of courage than the demigoddess Diana Prince.

I can't find the literary reference I was looking for to explain my logic, but this definition suffices...

Bravery is the ability to confront pain, danger, or attempts of intimidation without any feeling of fear. It is strength in character that allows a person to always be seemingly bigger than the crisis, whether he is indeed more powerful or lesser than what he is facing. Courage, on the other hand, is the ability to undertake an overwhelming difficulty or pain despite the eminent and unavoidable presence of fear. More than a quality, it is a state of mind driven by a cause that makes the struggle worth it. Unlike in the case of bravery, a person fueled by courage may feel inevitably small in the face of peril, pain, or problems. The essence of courage is not the feeling of being capable of overcoming obstacles, but rather the willful choice to fight regardless of the consequences and limitations.

Read more: Difference Between Courage and Bravery | Difference Between http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-courage-and-bravery/#ixzz67nnC4itH

This whole ep showed Kate's doubt that she belonged in such rarefied company, but her actions as described by Kara, showed her courage.

In fact, Crisis has done a great job at showing us Kate Kane and her potential as a paragon, as a friend, as a comedic foil (disputing Kara's comments that Luke was "cute") and it makes me want to watch BW even more.

I'm enjoying crisis, even Mick's strange superpower as a babysitter.
 
As much as I love Wonder Woman, the unpowered Kate Kane better embodies the idea of courage than the demigoddess Diana Prince.

If Wonder Woman were any Paragon, it would be the Paragon of Truth. In the comics, she was literally the Goddess of Truth for a while. (Which is an outgrowth of her wielding the Lasso of Truth, although it didn't actually get defined that way until the Lynda Carter series and the post-Crisis comics reboot; originally it just compelled obedience, as part of Marston's whole bondage/domination fetish. The myth popularized by Professor Marston and the Wonder Women that Marston "invented the lie detector" and created the lasso to symbolize it is itself a complete untruth, a fiction invented in retrospect because it fits together so neatly as a story.)
 
I'm not exactly sure why given that I'm only barely getting to know Cryer's Lex, but I can't help but think that it's significant that he specifically rewrote destiny to make himself the Paragon of Truth.
 
I disagree. As much as I love Wonder Woman, the unpowered Kate Kane better embodies the idea of courage than the demigoddess Diana Prince.

I get your point, but being powered or unpowered has nothing to do with courage. Imagine Doomsday is attacking. No human would stand a chance. Doomsday devastated the entire Justice League. The powered people. Now you're Superman, and the last chance. Powered or not, that takes incredible courage. Wonder Woman, in the movie at least, was one of the last standing before Superman had to fight alone. She has no quit, even if she IS outmatched. Wonder Woman is the actual embodiment of courage. She is beyond awesome as a hero.

Also, let's look at Flash90 and how he went out. That was courage and sacrifice.

And yes, there are lots of courageous humans. But why in all the universes, this Batwoman? There are versions of Batman that dwarf anything she could have possibly done. The answer is obvious--she has her own show, but it's still very forced. But there is no way--no chance--that this version of Kate Kane could match the courage of Wonder Woman. Plus, if not Wonder Woman, you have Batman, who is much more experienced and easily matches any courage any human could have. Just don't go to the world with the evil one.

This whole ep showed Kate's doubt that she belonged in such rarefied company, but her actions as described by Kara, showed her courage.

Kate was more acting out of wisdom than courage with Kara. She was right. If Kara failed, they lose a paragon.

If Wonder Woman were any Paragon, it would be the Paragon of Truth. In the comics, she was literally the Goddess of Truth for a while. (Which is an outgrowth of her wielding the Lasso of Truth, although it didn't actually get defined that way until the Lynda Carter series and the post-Crisis comics reboot; originally it just compelled obedience, as part of Marston's whole bondage/domination fetish. The myth popularized by Professor Marston and the Wonder Women that Marston "invented the lie detector" and created the lasso to symbolize it is itself a complete untruth, a fiction invented in retrospect because it fits together so neatly as a story.)

A good point, but there are more aspects to Wonder Woman than just truth. Superman works as truth or courage or hope. Superman inspires.

Maybe what they should have done is have Batwoman be the paragon of humanity and ditch Ryan Choi.
 
I loathe the character of the Spectre. I hate the way he brutally, sadistically murders criminals under the pretense of "divine justice" -- it's a disgusting morality and cosmology. Oliver spent eight years growing out of his original mission of vengeance and murder to embrace a more heroic, positive calling, and becoming the Spectre -- using the Spectre's methods -- would be a massive backslide.
That would depend on the depiction of the Spectre. Like most comic characters that go that far back, he's been handled differently over the decades. When he's interacting with other heroes, like in the old JLA/JSA crossovers, he's usually treated as a big, cosmic McGuffin or deus ex machina.

I think one thing that surprises me is that the cliffhanger here depends on the Vanishing Point, a leftover concept from the much-reviled first season of Legends of Tomorrow (though also used in season 2 as the Legion of Doom's HQ). It's been years since it was mentioned, and it's unexpected for an LoT concept to be so crucial when the crossover is so light on Legends (just Sara and Ray, plus alternate Rory and "Leonard").
Like so many other things in these shows, Vanishing Point originated in the comics. As a concept, it's not specific to LoT.
 
Choi is the Paragon of Humanity because he's a literal representation of the saying "Not all heroes wear capes".

No one is watching the Crisis to see a new character introduced and be given a bigger role than A list heroes. While your point is understandable, there are still better choices that could have been made regarding the paragon. Wearing a cape shouldn't disqualify you from being human. The idea that Kate is the embodiment of courage because she's human but can't be the paragon of humanity makes no sense.
 
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