Yeah, I can just see it. Watters: "Major Kira, you are not in Starfleet. Just because you report to a Starfleet captain does not give you the authori--" (Kira decks him.)
Kira Nerys - one of the best Trek characters ever?
- Thread starter Kilana2
- Start date
Yeah, I can just see it. Watters: "Major Kira, you are not in Starfleet. Just because you report to a Starfleet captain does not give you the authori--" (Kira decks him.)
M
marlboro
Guest
I hated her at first but between the show and the books she became one of my favorite characters.
There are several major replies to your points, discussing them in fair depth. I think pretending that the only refutation you have received amounts to "No she's not, I'm not listening!" is a bit disingenuous.
Maybe you forget the read this part of my reply:
For example to your opinion:
I said:
You know, I have nothing against using erotic/sex in subtle/ explicit way. If it is so good written, real in its own frame, tells about the character and story arc, why shouldn't we have a female "Riker"? For example, if they showed us PTSD/maladjustment of Kira compensated with permanent love/sex affairs, it would be very realistic and could made her multifaceted, but it wouldn't be easy selling object just as Intendant and from everyone adored shiny clean (and badass
) Kira. Whatsoever, until now I couldn't read any response to say " U huh, I missed it, I never see her from this aspect, ahhh it was allegory of x..etc" Sorry, I still don't see any greatness in her creation, rather realize more and more how much opportunities they missed with it. On the other hand, I see here what I call "bleak provocation" , keeping none of the promises (no rebel, no good guerilla, no unusual tactician, no exceptional leader, no strength female..) can be very good marketing vehicles. Can we call it greatness? I assume, so.
"Shiny and clean"? Kira Nerys? No and no. She may be a fundamentally good person, but she has done much she's not proud of*. Even if it's something she would do all over again if she had to.and from everyone adored shiny clean (and badass
*and much that each audience member must decide for themselves if it was the "right" thing to do.
The Intendant is not Kira Nerys. They share a some of their looks and an actress, that's all. They move differently, they talk differently, they have very different goals and attitudes and ethics for personal behavior.
The mirror universe was largely for comic relief, more of a melodrama compared to the drama of the main universe. It was a change of pace for both audience and actors... arguably overused. The rules for making plausible characters don't apply much to the mirror universe.
The mirror universe was largely for comic relief, more of a melodrama compared to the drama of the main universe. It was a change of pace for both audience and actors... arguably overused. The rules for making plausible characters don't apply much to the mirror universe.
I don't see Kira's moral decisions problematic, unless you're using the easy right decisions in TNG or 90s television as your measuring stick.
Calling out Kira on her relationships on subjects other than the dull personalities of most of her romantic choices is a little prescriptive. She dates figures of political power and always maintains being the powerful member of the relationship.
I don't see how you can't see Kira as being strong. Maybe when she's standing next to Sisko, a shapeshifter and two bat'leth masters she doesn't seem like one of the stronger members of the cast. But I'm glad they didn't give her super powers, that would have diminished the character. A lot of strong women on TV and movies can only hold their own because their strength is magically supercharged, Kira's strength comes from her strength of personality and the pain of her personal experiences only.
Calling out Kira on her relationships on subjects other than the dull personalities of most of her romantic choices is a little prescriptive. She dates figures of political power and always maintains being the powerful member of the relationship.
I don't see how you can't see Kira as being strong. Maybe when she's standing next to Sisko, a shapeshifter and two bat'leth masters she doesn't seem like one of the stronger members of the cast. But I'm glad they didn't give her super powers, that would have diminished the character. A lot of strong women on TV and movies can only hold their own because their strength is magically supercharged, Kira's strength comes from her strength of personality and the pain of her personal experiences only.
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If they had nothing to do with each other why don't we think about Quark's alter ego when we see Intendant? They have more common character properties, aren't they? Why Mirror Universe called "Mirror" ? Of course Kira and Intendant are related to each other. My question is why should Intendant has to be sex obsessed? It is easy to answer: sex sells and it a very cheap way of marketing. And that is what I am talking about whole time, if a character needs a cheap tricks to sell, how can we call her one of the best character of Trek or even great? If it was a one time issue, we can go over with but..
Most of great men/women of our political history were real mass murder, dictators, greedy, merciless people, but if we talk/think about them we talk how great they are and how thankful we are for their deeds. We visit their monumentals, read about them countless books, waiting at the queue for the exhibitions. Well, most of them have the power to etabilize their version of history, but we also intend to forgive/ ignore their failures. Even in the " In the Pale Moonlight" didn't we become accomplice of Sisko as he looked directly into our eyes? We saw some issues about Kira, but they are not enough to make her "dirty" and "dark" , imho. To be honest as SL Buckley says " First casualty of war is innocence" and Kira shouldn't be an exception. For my taste she is not dark enough for someone who should carry all the burden of war, genocide, personal lost, discrimination.
I like TNG's world and hope one day humanity can go so far, but it is too far to me and (most of) main characters are too idealized, as Roddenberry wished. (I rather interested in how we get there.) Kira could have not great problems to integrate in the crew. What kind of problem should she have? Maybe she would fight with Troi about Riker or she directly goes for Picard? Who knows? I don't know, but I know, Geordi wouldn't have a chance as usual.
The question is why she hadn't any relationship with "normal" people? Why all the man with power, why every one of them crazy about her, fall deeply and very romantically in love, she is the absolutely object of desire. She is not the one who fights desperately for the heart of someone. Even Sisko married with a woman who was not someone, more over a "criminal" . But Kira is a rebel, yes sure. That's why I called, she never breaks the cliche. That's her super power, she doesn't need any additional one. And I don't see how you can't see Kira has nothing about being strong.
Nothing can be sacred than viewer quotes. Thank you Prax to remembering that..
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The Mirror Universe is called "mirror" because it's a reflection, and reflections flip things around. The Intendant is highly motivated by power, sex, and sadism; Kira is highly motivated instead by faith, loyalty to her planet, and her friends. Just like mirror Sisko is a pirate, very sexual with many women, betraying those he knows for power and money, while prime universe Sisko is a lawful Starfleet officer, sexual only the context of a relationship (okay, once with mirror Dax when necessary to maintain a deception to get back to prime universe), and not highly motivated by power and not at all by money.
Thank you @kkt, but it is not what I mean. We call it "Mirror Universe" (but not "Alternative Universe" ), 'cause you look at the mirror to see..what? As I was a child there was a Mirror Theater at the Lunapark. Nowadays it would be very primitive way to entertaining, but I loved how "I" looked at the mirror. Yes, we see our reflections at the mirror and not all mirrors are "honest" but at the end, they are our reflections, something related to ourselves. It doesn't matter how flip things out, they are our reflections. Why Kira's reflection must be sex obsessed, she could obsessed with religion, with war, with..anything or she could be a convinced/obsessed pacifist, even freely collaborator of Cardassians. Why they choose for her such reflection? I don't think they thought to much in sophisticated way, and they didn't need it. Sex sells, a little bit provocation too. What I still didn't get it why all those things make Kira best or great? Why such a great figure needs such tricks? We saw those tricks thousand times before/after DS9 and this time is nothing special, nothing revolutionary or unforgettable. 
[Sisko wasn't a lawful Starfleet officer, not always, but it is another discussion.]
[Sisko wasn't a lawful Starfleet officer, not always, but it is another discussion.]
It gets called the Mirror Universe due to the first appearance being in "Mirror, Mirror", not because it is an actual mirror. That's why the characters themselves usually call it "The alternate universe".
Personally, I'm still at a complete loss as to how all this talk of sex and alternate universe doubles means anything regarding Kira Nerys' character. Maybe it's just me.
Well, you altogether convinced me: Indentant has nothing but really really nothing to do with Kira, she can be related with anyone but of course not with her greatness Kira. Indentant is sex obsessed, while all audience hates sex and if you show such things no one, but no one watches the show ever again, nevertheless you do this. 'Cause it is a main issue about the character, you have to have show this side of her. If not, it would be betraying your art, your audience and also Trek philosophy.
No, no, no! They didn't do all those things, since everything about Kira is soo perfect, (well at the very beginning not, but after then) who wouldn't find her the best Trek character, wants to watch her 24/7? (God is my witness). It was definitely not a cheap, banal marketing trick, she never needs such things. She is on her own right, best Trek character ever, multi dimensional, sophisticated even a new Redeemer, will open your eyes to new realities about yourself. I am really happy and saved to at the end become one of you, who are real believers.
You got me people. Go on!
[Thank you for the little fun at Sunday morning guys, you are really great.]
Wait, I thought you're problem was that Kira had too many lovers? It sure sounds now like you're taking the a stance counter to that. My apologies if that's not correct, I'm finding it hard to parse your sentences while simultaneously reverse-engineering the sarcasm-based opposite talk in my brain. Boy, there's a sentence. Who am I to criticize? 
Ohh @Tosk, as I was heretic, I said something like:
No, it was not my point that she has too many lovers as you see at the quotes, for me she could have been at every episode a new lover/ relationship /love interests, whatever you called, if it has bring some deepness to her character, to story arc based of her special history. If you take your benchmark so high for Kira and say she is the best (or one of the best), it would be expected her private life has huge impact at the Trek, doesn't it? Even quality of her relationships (some soap operas has more realistic love stories than everyone adores and mad about the girl) is not worth for the best character, imho.You know, I have nothing against using erotic/sex in subtle/ explicit way. If it is so good written, real in its own frame, tells about the character and story arc, why shouldn't we have a female "Riker"? For example, if they showed us PTSD/ maladjustment of Kira compensated with permanent love/sex affairs, it would be very realistic and could made her multifaceted, but it wouldn't be easy selling object just as Intendant and from everyone adored shiny clean (and badass
I wouldn't have nothing against the relationships with Odo or even with Dukat, if they have something to tell like TNG's Chain of Commands (corporation with Amnesty of International), or something essential.
She was not less "oversexed" than other that for criticized characters for the marketing purpose, her relationships has no great impact at the story. (and she was not a good guerilla/ leader/ tacticians.. and so on) They are not signs for me about greatness of a character for what she is defined.
Is it really complicated to understand what I am talking about?
But you know, I am not heretic anymore. As you said, who I am to criticize her greatness or her fans infinite, well reasoned, infallible faith ? Now, I have to go start with my penance fast.
Well, you altogether convinced me: Indentant has nothing but really really nothing to do with Kira, she can be related with anyone but of course not with her greatness Kira. Indentant is sex obsessed, while all audience hates sex and if you show such things no one, but no one watches the show ever again, nevertheless you do this. 'Cause it is a main issue about the character, you have to have show this side of her. If not, it would be betraying your art, your audience and also Trek philosophy.
No, no, no! They didn't do all those things, since everything about Kira is soo perfect, (well at the very beginning not, but after then) who wouldn't find her the best Trek character, wants to watch her 24/7? (God is my witness). It was definitely not a cheap, banal marketing trick, she never needs such things. She is on her own right, best Trek character ever, multi dimensional, sophisticated even a new Redeemer, will open your eyes to new realities about yourself. I am really happy and saved to at the end become one of you, who are real believers.
You got me people. Go on!
[Thank you for the little fun at Sunday morning guys, you are really great.]
Okay, I'm finished trying to find a real position underneath all the layers of sarcasm.
Kira Nerys and The Intendant are two VERY different characters with VERY different upbringings. The fact both are played by the same actress means nothing.
Using the traits of one as a measuring stick of the other is like doing the same thing with the characters Data and Lore. Except for being built by Soong and played by the same actor, their characters are nothing alike.
The Intendant was not that interesting, but she was fun to watch because she was a bit of a caricature.
Kira Nerys was an excellent character because she was interesting AND fun to watch. She had a clear growth from pilot to finale. Perhaps not the greatest character in all of STAR TREK, which is a matter of taste, but she definitely ranks in the top tier of that group. (Data, Garak, Spock, and a few others also belong in that top tier group.)
Using the traits of one as a measuring stick of the other is like doing the same thing with the characters Data and Lore. Except for being built by Soong and played by the same actor, their characters are nothing alike.
The Intendant was not that interesting, but she was fun to watch because she was a bit of a caricature.
Kira Nerys was an excellent character because she was interesting AND fun to watch. She had a clear growth from pilot to finale. Perhaps not the greatest character in all of STAR TREK, which is a matter of taste, but she definitely ranks in the top tier of that group. (Data, Garak, Spock, and a few others also belong in that top tier group.)
Kira didn't have more or fewer lovers than other characters. She always chose someone she shared things in common.
She developed a great working relationship with Sisko, Dax and anyone else aboard. I wish we could have seen more of her on Bajor instead of the station. The novels filled in some gaps - with additional facets of Kira.
She developed a great working relationship with Sisko, Dax and anyone else aboard. I wish we could have seen more of her on Bajor instead of the station. The novels filled in some gaps - with additional facets of Kira.
Yes, as I said I am really really convinced, how GREAT Kira is.(Sorry, I didn't realize before, if I didn't write my words with capital letters, they would not be correct enough.) Why is Kira great? 'Cause she is great! Why she is interesting? 'Cause she is interesting ( Heretic me said yes, she made with cheap marketing tricks interesting for a part of audience and she didn't keep the promise of ex freedom fighter/guerrilla/rebel girl who can now play a key role for building a new strong society from ashes of genocide, on the contrary she was easy adjusted good girl who supported blindly religion, tradition etc.) At least Farscape says she was fun to watch. (Well, some people finds Kardashians fun to watch, others find watching three hours excavator videos are great fun, matter of taste. It is one of the achievement our civilization, we have offers for all tastes). Plus she had a clear growth. (Mayweather and Kim did also, didn't they?) He also remembers dynamics between Data and Lore (Lore has his reasons, which can understandable even not acceptable, plus he was very smart, he could surprise us, we can learn from him not only about Data, but about being human in general.And he was Yan of Ying. What kind of meaning would he has for us without Data? What would a night has meaning without a morning? Kira and Intendant have of course nothing to do with each other, just like Data and Lore have nothing to do each other. And what we learn from Intendant? Power, sex and sadism. At least honestly than politic program of some ruling parties. But as all you say, she has nothing to do with Kira and fun to watch. Excavator? She has sure nothing to do with viewer quotes, since such things like sex, power, obscure things are poison for viewers quotes. For example me, I never laugh at her scenes, it was only cringey to me. See, quotes was not the reason, I notice it now, with your help of course.)
I can understand everything about being fan, but it is not controversial to criticize the things at the same time. She is for me very weak written, absolutely dispensable, forgettable, not original character. Her reason for being is pepping up the quotes, imho. A little bit sex here, a little bit six years old good girl there, a little bit giving hope every hopeless lover over there, a little bit playing badass over over there. I wished to know how you guys react if she were a male person? Can you call her again so badass, etc? I told about why I see her in this way. She did nothing revolutionary or new to tell us something about being human. (I would be very happy, if someone can tell me what did she new and revolutionary to have this special part at your heart) Data did, Garak did, Spock/Nimoy did.. and how! Compering her with all those figures a little bit dull, I think. Trek is something about hope for a better future to me, even some people call Trek one of the post modern religions. That's why I also used here a bit religious slang also get fast religious reactions. Now I have a feeling, it doesn't go anywhere. I would like to thank everyone who contributes their thoughts, but I couldn't find any argument which can make me question my position (Sorry, I lied before
) and most of my questions are unanswered. Yes, yes, you didn't read, lol.
Well, I understand, you all love her very very much, some of you doesn't comfortable about when the others have another meaning, feels personally attacked, reacted passive aggressive which was not my personal intend. (Well, so far I am not accused for things, that I didn't do, I have great respect to Trek people if they care about their reputation of passion
)
Nevertheless,you can continue with to tell each other how GREAT and best she is, praise she whole the line without being disturbed (Please don't open next time a thread in question form, people like me could take it serious and try to answer.
) Have fun!
[I didn't see before I posted, thanks @Kilana2 .
I can understand everything about being fan, but it is not controversial to criticize the things at the same time. She is for me very weak written, absolutely dispensable, forgettable, not original character. Her reason for being is pepping up the quotes, imho. A little bit sex here, a little bit six years old good girl there, a little bit giving hope every hopeless lover over there, a little bit playing badass over over there. I wished to know how you guys react if she were a male person? Can you call her again so badass, etc? I told about why I see her in this way. She did nothing revolutionary or new to tell us something about being human. (I would be very happy, if someone can tell me what did she new and revolutionary to have this special part at your heart) Data did, Garak did, Spock/Nimoy did.. and how! Compering her with all those figures a little bit dull, I think. Trek is something about hope for a better future to me, even some people call Trek one of the post modern religions. That's why I also used here a bit religious slang also get fast religious reactions. Now I have a feeling, it doesn't go anywhere. I would like to thank everyone who contributes their thoughts, but I couldn't find any argument which can make me question my position (Sorry, I lied before
) and most of my questions are unanswered. Yes, yes, you didn't read, lol.Well, I understand, you all love her very very much, some of you doesn't comfortable about when the others have another meaning, feels personally attacked, reacted passive aggressive which was not my personal intend. (Well, so far I am not accused for things, that I didn't do, I have great respect to Trek people if they care about their reputation of passion
)Nevertheless,you can continue with to tell each other how GREAT and best she is, praise she whole the line without being disturbed (Please don't open next time a thread in question form, people like me could take it serious and try to answer.
) Have fun![I didn't see before I posted, thanks @Kilana2 .
, Isn't it something very very normal, unless your culture prefers forced marriages? She has relationship with the guy she has something common, woooww! Isn't she GREAT?]
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Thanks for the chuckle.
