Alex Kurtzman on the Fine Line Between Adding to, and Staying True to, Star Trek's Canon

[Dukhat]

I’m not going to make a big deal out of this. I didn’t like Tilly’s cursing because I thought it was forced, not because of the fact that she cursed. If people don’t think it was forced, fine. That’s your opinion. Why everyone is making such a stink about my personal opinion boggles my mind.

It’s no different from Kirk saying “double dumbass on you” in TVH and “I ought to kick your goddamn ass” in TFF. The first line is in context with the joke about using “colorful metaphors” in a society that according to Kirk uses them all the time to communicate. The second line was just horrible writing.

Oh, and BTW, what does any of this have to do with the OP’s topic of Alex Kurtzman’s views on canon?

 

[jaime]

I’m not going to make a big deal out of this. I didn’t like Tilly’s cursing because I thought it was forced, not because of the fact that she cursed. If people don’t think it was forced, fine. That’s your opinion. Why everyone is making such a stink about my personal opinion boggles my mind.

It’s no different from Kirk saying “double dumbass on you” in TVH and “I ought to kick your goddamn ass” in TFF. The first line is in context with the joke about using “colorful metaphors” in a society that according to Kirk uses them all the time to communicate. The second line was just horrible writing.

Oh, and BTW, what does any of this have to do with the OP’s topic of Alex Kurtzman’s views on canon?

There’s a branch of fandom that would see anytime we see a character say Starfleet isnt military, or that there’s no money, or that people don’t lean towards profanity as much in the future, would see those as something to be ignored or stricken from the canon. Tilly does break with canon there I suppose. For me, it’s part of why it seems forced and jarring tbh. As does Section 31 on parade.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh, and BTW, what does any of this have to do with the OP’s topic of Alex Kurtzman’s views on canon?

Because canon means different things to different people, including how characters would be expected to speak.

It's really a fascinating dive into what makes Star Trek Star Trek for people, and what it takes to make them go "Eh, no."

 

[Dukhat]

Because canon means different things to different people, including how characters would be expected to speak.

It's really a fascinating dive into what makes Star Trek Star Trek for people, and what it takes to make them go "Eh, no."

Ok, then if we want to examine canon in this specific instance of “cursing,” then in TOS the only time I can recall when anyone cursed was when Kirk said “Let’s get the hell out of here” at the end of City on the Edge of Forever.” McCoy might have thrown in a few “damn’s” here and there too.

But it was TVH that really made it clear that cursing wasn’t something normal to the 23rd century lexicon (or at least overt cursing aimed at other individuals). Spock seemed completely unfamiliar with the concept other than the names of some authors Kirk mentions, and Kirk was under the impression that constantly using these ‘colorful metaphors’ was simply how everyone communicated in this time. And then for some odd reason in TFF he starts using them like never before. Maybe he realized he liked it during their stint in 1986? Either way, the majority of the cursing seems limited mostly to Kirk and his ‘knowledge’ and newfound indulgence of it.

 

[fireproof78]

Ok, then if we want to examine canon in this specific instance of “cursing,” then in TOS the only time I can recall when anyone cursed was when Kirk said “Let’s get the hell out of here” at the end of City on the Edge of Forever.” McCoy might have thrown in a few “damn’s” here and there too.

But it was TVH that really made it clear that cursing wasn’t something normal to the 23rd century lexicon (or at least overt cursing aimed at other individuals). Spock seemed completely unfamiliar with the concept other than the names of some authors Kirk mentions, and Kirk was under the impression that constantly using these ‘colorful metaphors’ was simply how everyone communicated in this time. And then for some odd reason in TFF he starts using them like never before. Maybe he realized he liked it during their stint in 1986? Either way, the majority of the cursing seems limited mostly to Kirk and his ‘knowledge’ and newfound indulgence of it.

Completely fair point. I personally think swearing in Trek has no place. Tilly's comment works for me because she is demonstrated to be more awkward in a social sense.

But, you could lose almost all swearing in Trek and have a better show. In my opinion.

 

[Danja]

Completely fair point. I personally think swearing in Trek has no place. Tilly's comment works for me because she is demonstrated to be more awkward in a social sense.

But, you could lose almost all swearing in Trek and have a better show. In my opinion.

Trek is supposed to hold a mirror up to society.

Not everyone WANTS to be "evolved" (ESPECIALLY not according to someone else's definition of the term). Not even in our own day and age.

 

[fireproof78]

Trek is supposed to hold a mirror up to society.

Not everyone WANTS to be "evolved" (ESPECIALLY not according to someone else's definition of the term). Not even in our own day and age.

Trek doesn't need swearing to be that mirror.

Evolution and change is difficult, but even more so if I don't believe change is possible. Its not always a matter if wanting to be evolved, but thinking that such change is possible.

 

[jaime]

Trek is supposed to hold a mirror up to society.

Not everyone WANTS to be "evolved" (ESPECIALLY not according to someone else's definition of the term). Not even in our own day and age.

Trek is also supposed to be aspirational. To be better.
For some, many ‘curse’ words are seriously offensive.
They have as much right to *not be offended* as any other group, due to cultural beliefs etc.

More importantly...it’s part of the fiction of Trek to be that way.

Not to mention ‘realism’ means different things to different people. I have never enjoyed the Grand Theft Auto games because if I wanted to join gangs and steal cars, I only need to walk round the corner. I want something different from ‘real’ life in my fantasy and entertainment. I don’t need to wallow in unpleasantness or watch anger and prejudice...there’s plenty of that a few streets over.
What I, and many others, do benefit from, is 46 minutes of seeing things might just be *better* one day. That’s much more useful.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Personally, I've never bought the idea that cursing is a thing of the past in the Federation. Yes, TOS and even later series were produced under network tv cencorship, so they were never allowed to use the 'worst' words, but their behavior (especially on TOS) most certainly did not paint some super enlightened utopia where everything was better right down to never feeling the need to curse. In fact, McCoy cursed all the time, just with the lightest curse word because that's the only one the network allowed. But the behavior of saying 'Damnit!' in anger is literally not one iota different than saying 'f*ck' in anger, so I find it utterly ridiculous to imagine a world where no one ever curses, except for the phrase 'damnit' which is apparently totally normal. That's not how people work and it's not how language works. If McCoy's level of cursing is still considered normal, then there will be plenty of other types that still exist in the 23rd century, too.

Also, Kirk being confused about how to use the insult 'dumbass' is not in any way evidence that cursing in general doesn't exist anymore. First of all because cursing does exist as we've already seen. And secondly because Kirk himself is in fact capable of cursing as an insult (You Klingon Bastard!). That scene is just a little throwaway joke that really doesn't make much sense in the context of the rest of the franchise. It's far more of an outlier than the scene with Tilly which is literally no different than TOS's million damnits - those were almost all examples of cursing as emphasis, just like Tilly, which is an entirely different thing from insulting people like in TVH - except that it uses a different word that our society has irrationally chosen to be extra afraid of.

Of course there is one way in which Tilly's outburst was a clear outlier: it was actually a positive sentiment, not one said in anger or antagonism. Which I would personally is a far more positive view of what cursing might be in the 23rd century than anything we saw on TOS, regardless of the specific word used.

 

[Dukhat]

Honestly, I never expected a full-blown discourse on the history and canonicity of swearing in Star Trek. I just found Tilly saying 'fuck' to be annoying. In the future I'll try a little less to ruffle peoples' feathers about what fictional characters say.

 

[fireproof78]

Of course there is one way in which Tilly's outburst was a clear outlier: it was actually a positive sentiment, not one said in anger or antagonism. Which I would personally is a far more positive view of what cursing might be in the 23rd century than anything we saw on TOS, regardless of the specific word used.

This is a good point. The general application of swearing in Star Trek is usually one in anger not in excitement or celebratory. I mean, Kirk calls Kruge a "bastard" in TSFS, so the terminology was not unfamiliar. Also, the slang use of the f-word has been around since the Middle Ages (roughly, and obviously not always used the same way as modern colloquialism). But, I found this historical note quite interesting:

Fuck was outlawed in print in England (by the Obscene Publications Act, 1857) and the U.S. (by the Comstock Act, 1873). The word continued in common speech, however. During World War I:



It became so common that an effective way for the soldier to express this emotion was to omit this word. Thus if a sergeant said, 'Get your ----ing rifles!' it was understood as a matter of routine. But if he said 'Get your rifles!' there was an immediate implication of urgency and danger. [John Brophy, "Songs and Slang of the British Soldier: 1914-1918," pub. 1930]

Source for all the history buffs out there.

Let me be very real at this point. The use of this swear word (and others) has been around for a long time and is likely not to just disappear from the cultural lexicon. Would I prefer they not? Oh yeah, and Kirk's and Picard's swears are just as irritating to me as Tilly's.

In the whole of Trek though it is not nearly as bothersome as Picard going "Not good enough, damn it! Not good enough." One works for me, the other doesn't.

YMMV.

Honestly, I never expected a full-blown discourse on the history and canonicity of swearing in Star Trek. I just found Tilly saying 'fuck' to be annoying. In the future I'll try a little less to ruffle peoples' feathers about what fictional characters say.

You don't like discussions?

 

[Dukhat]

You don't like discussions?

I love discussions. Just making an observation.

 

[fireproof78]

I love discussions. Just making an observation.

I'm confused...why do you think people's feathers are ruffled? Is this that humor that I've heard of?

 

[Danja]

Trek is also supposed to be aspirational. To be better.

"Better" than WHAT? What are we asking people to "aspire" TO?

It's a matter of perspective.

 

[serabine]

Personally, I've never bought the idea that cursing is a thing of the past in the Federation. Yes, TOS and even later series were produced under network tv cencorship, so they were never allowed to use the 'worst' words, but their behavior (especially on TOS) most certainly did not paint some super enlightened utopia where everything was better right down to never feeling the need to curse. In fact, McCoy cursed all the time, just with the lightest curse word because that's the only one the network allowed. But the behavior of saying 'Damnit!' in anger is literally not one iota different than saying 'f*ck' in anger, so I find it utterly ridiculous to imagine a world where no one ever curses, except for the phrase 'damnit' which is apparently totally normal. That's not how people work and it's not how language works. If McCoy's level of cursing is still considered normal, then there will be plenty of other types that still exist in the 23rd century, too.

Also, Kirk being confused about how to use the insult 'dumbass' is not in any way evidence that cursing in general doesn't exist anymore. First of all because cursing does exist as we've already seen. And secondly because Kirk himself is in fact capable of cursing as an insult (You Klingon Bastard!). That scene is just a little throwaway joke that really doesn't make much sense in the context of the rest of the franchise. It's far more of an outlier than the scene with Tilly which is literally no different than TOS's million damnits - those were almost all examples of cursing as emphasis, just like Tilly, which is an entirely different thing from insulting people like in TVH - except that it uses a different word that our society has irrationally chosen to be extra afraid of.

Of course there is one way in which Tilly's outburst was a clear outlier: it was actually a positive sentiment, not one said in anger or antagonism. Which I would personally is a far more positive view of what cursing might be in the 23rd century than anything we saw on TOS, regardless of the specific word used.

Those are excellent points, and I'd just like to add that not only is "damnit" a (literal) curse word, there's groups of English speakers who don't want to hear it at all, and others who feel the need to change it to "darn" or " deng". For them, the use of damnit is unpleasant, rude, or even shocking.

So examining how Star Trek (and TOS in particular) is doing profanity wise, one would have to look at the social context of the time, too. Because people of the time might have had some thoughts on strong language in Trek back then which we don't have because we're used to much "worse" bad language.

Here's an article about McCoy and whether he ever said "damn it, I'm a doctor, not a ..." . And they point out that McCoy only swears damn it in the movies because you literally weren't allowed to swear like that on tv.

https://www.cbr.com/star-trek-doctor-mccoy-damn-it-jim-doctor-not/

So depending on who you asked, at least in the movies Star Trek characters were cursing, and we, today, just don't really register it as such.

 

[Lord Garth]

I explained why I had no issue with Tilly dropping an F-bomb to compare and contrast her case with Picard's.

I also don't believe the world of the 24th Century is "better". The Federation's policy when it comes to dealing with other powers is libertarian in nature, it looks down on others who aren't as far along as they are, it bends over backwards to maintain the peace rather than do what's right, and they'll shove their values in others' faces while it's convenient to do so but abandon those values once they're inconvenient. I hope the Federation in Picard's time has learned a lesson from the Borg and Dominion on a galaxy stage and learned a lesson from the situation with the Maquis on a more domestic stage. I hope they learned something in general. Because the Federation in TNG needed a kick in its ass.

 

[Danja]

I also don't believe the world of the 24th Century is "better". The Federation's policy when it comes to dealing with other powers is libertarian in nature, it looks down on others who aren't as far along as they are, it bends over backwards to maintain the peace rather than do what's right, and they'll shove their values in others' faces while it's convenient to do so but abandon those values once they're inconvenient.

Exhibit A: Seven of Nine and the Voyager crew's ham-fisted attempts to make her "human" ("Human" meaning "Something other than Borg").

I'm curious to see what the repercussions are going to be in Star Trek: Picard.

 

[WebLurker]

Exhibit A: Seven of Nine and the Voyager crew's ham-fisted attempts to make her "human" ("Human" meaning "Something other than Borg").

I'm curious to see what the repercussions are going to be in Star Trek: Picard.

Well, Seven did end the series onboard with the whole thing, so...

 

[Lord Garth]

Well, Seven did end the series onboard with the whole thing, so...

I think the truth is in the middle. Seven only embraced "Humanity" (Janeway's definition) up to a point. She's her own self but her experiences and upbringing as a Borg are still with her. She had an unusual life, so nothing will ever make her "normal". She wasn't and won't be cookie-cutter. She's the sum of her experiences and all that goes with it.

 

[Danja]

Well, Seven did end the series onboard with the whole thing, so...

Seven walked a tightrope for four years. She had a choice of either being "human" or being thrown out an airlock.

Picard has now changed the game completely. How many of Janeway's edicts are going to stick?

I think the truth is in the middle. Seven only embraced "Humanity" (Janeway's definition) up to a point. She's her own self but her experiences and upbringing as a Borg are still with her. She had an unusual life, so nothing will ever make her "normal". She wasn't and won't be cookie-cutter. She's the sum of her experiences and all that goes with it.

I agree ... she's DEFINITELY her own person.

Vis a vis Picard: lately, I've had visions of Seven being a 24th century Elsa (Difference between Seven and Elsa: When Seven goes all out, she packs heat! )

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