It wasn't even cursing, just the inclusion of a word that some people think should be taboo. It was emphasizing.
Alex Kurtzman on the Fine Line Between Adding to, and Staying True to, Star Trek's Canon
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It wasn't even cursing, just the inclusion of a word that some people think should be taboo. It was emphasizing.
There was nothing shocking about the word use in that scene, IMO.
So then use a different word than ‘shocking.’ The result was the same: the lines were meant to have an effect, because it was an effect that couldn’t have happened in previous Trek series. If TNG had been full of people cursing, they wouldn’t have bothered.
If we are comparing to TNG it was way more effective than the stupid delivery of Data's "Oh, shit." in Generations. And way more belivable.
Yes, they were meant to have an effect, which many of us actually got.
I did find the response of the shows detractors' kind of quaint and regressive and still do, as the focus of theirs was on the transgressive factor of the word and how it meant that Disco was not 'true to the spirit of Star Trek' and not on the context or usage which was actually rather adorable and even uplifting in its presentation.
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I agree that Data’s cursing was forced and stupid; however I really don’t see much difference between it and Tilly. It probably doesn’t help that I find Tilly to be an extremely annoying character all around.
I will never argue that DSC isn’t ‘true Star Trek,’ because there’s no such thing. But I will say that what you find adorable and uplifting, I found jarring and annoying, and on that point I don’t believe we will see eye to eye.
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The point in that is that it’s an extension of Data not operating with a full deck in that film. It’s analogous to his ‘ignite the midnight petroleum’ or ‘lock and load’ moments. So..if we are comparing to TNG then...it was terrible. Because it didn’t tell me anything about the character or characters, unless Tilly is now a scholar of historical language and just can’t help herself. Or she’s a bit of a pretentious muppet, like I was in my teenage years, when I insisted on using 1920s slang a lot, even though my sources may have been suspect.
Or y’know, not your fathers Trek, because his made more sense ;p
That line is basically just another ‘is it canon? Is it Prime continuity?’ Moment. Regardless of the fact that older Trek had to be a bit self-censoring in some areas, though perhaps restrained is a better word, because of rules and societal convention at the time, it did bother working in something of a reason for that ( A double dumb ass on you.) into its continuity.
That’s a great point. Why did the cursing work so well in TVH but work so horribly in TFF? It’s all about context.
I don't see how they're really similar at all.
Tilly is an overexcitable person who got carried away and said something in a setting where she probably shouldn't have said it.
Data is a machine who can't get overexcited and who's entire experience of what 'acting human' means comes completely from the people around him - none of whom where ever seen cursing under any circumstances (not even his iconoclastic father or more human-ish 'brother'). I guess we could assume there's some hidden 'cursing protocol' buried in there he never used or didn't know about and the malfunction brought it out, but it's just such a 'why is he even saying that'? moment.
The word 'F*ck' has existed for hundreds of years already. There's absolutely no reason to assume Tilly needs to be a historical scholar to know it. The word just still exists normally a few hundred years from now.
And if her usage didn't tell you anything about the character, that just tells me you were so busy imagining ridiculous theories about reviving long dead curse words instead of paying attention to the scene, because there's plenty of characterization in that moment. It tells us about her *emphatic* enjoyment of science - which is kind of a defining character trait which she also shares with Stamets which is the whole point of the scene (they're literally bonding over science) - while also reinforcing her tendency to awkwardly act out of turn and say things she officially probably shouldn't say, which is another defining character trait.
Because you’re focusing on the characters that made the statements. I’m focusing on the statements themselves. Burnham could have said fuck instead of Tilly, and Riker could have said shit instead of Data. That’s not my point.
Didn't he swear in French during TNG S1?
And that's where you and I will differ. It fits in with the character becoming extremely excited and having a brief unprofessional moment. Which, having worked in a couple of different professions, those moments are going to happen.
I do agree that Data's was forced. I don't agree about Tilly.
Any job I've had, there's always been swearing between co-workers. Any job. In the past 25 years -- from high school to present day -- I've worked in retail, in schools, in offices, odd jobs, some other jobs I wasn't too proud to have had, and finally with production studios (which is where I want to be). The point is I've worked in all kinds of places. The only time there wasn't any swearing at all was when dealing directly with customers/students/clients, etc. But between just a few co-workers and no one else around? Yeah, there was swearing.
So anyone who says Tilly swearing and then Stamets jumping in with it too is unprofessional: maybe, but that's life. "But Stamets is a superior officer!" Yeah, well, Stamets doesn't strike me as someone with a stick up his ass. (Well, he could... but let's not go there). "CBSAA was just doing it to show off!" Maybe. But people in their teens and early-20s do a lot of stuff just to show off. That's what being that age is all about. So Tilly was the perfect character to say "fucking cool". And she just let it slip. We've had posters on here who actually served in the military who said it's not a big deal what Tilly said in the context it was in. So there we go.
I currently work in public access television. I might say to a co-worker, "That's so fucking cool." Well, I wouldn't because that's not how I normally use the f-bomb. But I wouldn't get written up if I said it around them. On the other hand, if I record a municipal meeting and some town big-wig is there and I say "that's so fucking cool" and they're not amused, then they might say something and then that wouldn't go over too well. It's all about time, place, and who you're around. Especially who you're around.
Picard, on the other hand, is long passed the stage where he needs to show off. Not counting when he was clearly going through a mid-life crisis in the movies. Hopefully he's over it now. Rambo Picard can rest in peace, as far as I'm concerned. But the example I provided in my previous post of Picard saying "merde" is something that would have context and be in character.
So anyone who says Tilly swearing and then Stamets jumping in with it too is unprofessional: maybe, but that's life. "But Stamets is a superior officer!" Yeah, well, Stamets doesn't strike me as someone with a stick up his ass. (Well, he could... but let's not go there). "CBSAA was just doing it to show off!" Maybe. But people in their teens and early-20s do a lot of stuff just to show off. That's what being that age is all about. So Tilly was the perfect character to say "fucking cool". And she just let it slip. We've had posters on here who actually served in the military who said it's not a big deal what Tilly said in the context it was in. So there we go.
I currently work in public access television. I might say to a co-worker, "That's so fucking cool." Well, I wouldn't because that's not how I normally use the f-bomb. But I wouldn't get written up if I said it around them. On the other hand, if I record a municipal meeting and some town big-wig is there and I say "that's so fucking cool" and they're not amused, then they might say something and then that wouldn't go over too well. It's all about time, place, and who you're around. Especially who you're around.
Picard, on the other hand, is long passed the stage where he needs to show off. Not counting when he was clearly going through a mid-life crisis in the movies. Hopefully he's over it now. Rambo Picard can rest in peace, as far as I'm concerned. But the example I provided in my previous post of Picard saying "merde" is something that would have context and be in character.
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I work in mental health counseling and I use the f-word with my boss. Usually its a really bad day or frustrating situation but we have that kind of relationship.
Ah, Star Trek: "We could go boldly where no one has gone before, but some people might consider that presumptuous, and others might be somehow offended by the way we go about it, so perhaps we just shouldn't."
Guys, people complained that one of our cadets swore so we're shutting down Starfleet.
I don't see how you have any point at all if you're going to deliberately ignore the context of each scene.
You keep saying the problem is that the line is forced. But who is speaking, why, how and in what situation are all obviously important questions when asking 'is this forced'?. How on earth can you possibly determine what is or isn't forced without looking at context? Tilly saying something is not the same thing as Stamets saying it or Burnham saying it or Riker saying it (at least, not unless it would be equally out of character for all of them, but what Tilly said was entirely in character for her).
I remember a scene from DS9 where Quark is trying to figure out a way to get out of fighting a Klingon;
Quark: “Come on! There has to be another way out of this! You people have rituals for everything except waste extraction!! "
I thought it was funny because of the way Quark said it. It also surprise to me because he actually said waste extraction or basically going to the toilet.
It's no big deal, but up until then, they never mentioned it. They kind of pretended it didn't exist in TNG.
Up until post TNG, the characters and the environment seemed almost sterilized.
Afterwards there is obvious difference in how the characters talked and expressed themselves.
There were even articles written about Tilly saying the F-word. Why?
Maybe because up until then, no one ever really heard people express themselves in such a down to earth way before-- IMO.
I'm currently working my way through TNG because of PIC. One of the things I'm looking out for are the changes in the characters as Gene Roddenberry's influence lessens. I'm at the end of the third season. Strange as it sounds, "Captain's Holiday" and "Hollow Pursuits" seem like breakthroughs. Picard acts differently around Vash and everyone else on Risa. And everyone treats Barclay like a loser until he pulls through for them at the end, which is horrible, but also shows they're not as enlightened as they like to think.
I think by the sixth season, TNG isn't too much different from DS9, VOY, or ENT. Aside from the fact that the crew is a little bit more on the same page than the rest of the series in the Berman Era.
I think by the sixth season, TNG isn't too much different from DS9, VOY, or ENT. Aside from the fact that the crew is a little bit more on the same page than the rest of the series in the Berman Era.
What does ‘a double dumb ass on you’ and it’s surrounding scenes tell you?
The only other human of the era we see use an oath is when Kirk calls kruge a bastard.
Trek already outright said ‘people don’t really swear anymore’ basically.
And I got nothing about the character from her swearing. Maybe a tiny bit about Stamets.
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