Anomalies in fandom

[Falconer]

Star Trek: Adventure Gaming in the Final Frontier (1978), p. 35, includes this note: “You may have realized that the players of a scenario do not have to be Star Fleet crewmembers. They could be Klingons, Romulans, or some other race. Think how nice it would be sometime to be able to solve a problem technologically and not be hampered by the Prime Directive restricting your every action. Admittedly the Star Fleet crew has the harder job, having to play by the United Federation of Planets’ rules and still get the job done. But Kirk seemed to manage from week-to-week, and you can too.”

 

[FormerLurker]

Where do you get this understanding from? Seems like a lot of supposition, and I've never personally heard this angle before.

Several interviews in Starlog over the years, mostly. GR stated as much categorically at least once, possibly to TV Guide as well. I never kept records of it separately for reference, as I never thought it would be necessary.

As far as it goes, just because you've never encountered it before, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Seeing the disease first-hand myself, one wonders whether part of Doohan's disdain for Shatner originates from his Alzheimer's disease. It's a cruel disease, and maybe it had an impact on his memories and attitudes later in life as it started to take hold.

Likely the reverse, actually. Alzheimer's kills off short term memory first.

Shatner did his level best to bury the hatchet with Doohan. By the time Star Trek was inducted to the Television Hall of Fame, they got along well enough that Shatner made sure that when the time came for a second cast member to speak, even though the broadcast went to commercial, Doohan was the one he brought to the microphone to speak. Doohan was already in poor condition, but he got out "Thank you very much" before they went to commercial. As his condition progressed, his more recent memories would have faded and the animosity he felt would have then resurged. I'm seeing this happen with my father, and it's no way to go.

 

[Commishsleer]

In regards to Doohan, from what I remember reading his book the general idea was that during the TOS filming Doohan was just grateful to have a job. I think he generally tolerated Shatner's shenanigans. It was when he tried to contact him about a movie when Shatner (rudely) hung up on him that he started feeling resentful. Also he thought (maybe wrongly) that Shatner was making Scotty look like a fool in Star Trek V. by having him hit his head on the beam.
Look I may be wrong here - I wasn't involved in fandom - maybe it started earlier.

I know that people argue that Shatner is the star which he clearly was no doubt about that. It still doesn't give him the right to treat even the 2nd assistant lighting guy like dirt.

.

 

[Mysterion]

Saw a interview with Shatner where he insisted that during the run of TOS he had no idea what George Takei name was, and didn't know it for years after.

Then there's this already cringeworthy (for a lot of reasons) press conference for Star Trek V where Shatner cannot remember Walter Koenig's name:

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[Pauln6]

I watched TOS on the BBC in the seventies. It was shown out of order and I just watched it if it happened to be on after school. Contemporary shows like Battlestar Galactica and Blake's 7 were a bit more ensemble so I tended to view Trek through that prism. The FASA role playing game was out and had stats for all the recurring cast, including Chapel, Rand, Lesley, Kyle, and DeSalle. I recall wondering why Uhura didn’t get to beam down to the planet more often, since she was the only main woman in the cast, but beyond that, I just thought of it as an ensemble. I was disappointed that the TMP action figures only featured a few crewmen (although still better than BSG admittedly, which didn't even produce Apollo, bizarrely).

 

[Maurice]

Let's clear up the industry lingo.

STARS: Shatner was star. Nimoy was the co-star. Starting with season 3 Kelley was bumped up to co-star.

REGULAR/SUPPORTING PLAYERS: Whitney, Doohan, Takei, Koening and Barrett

RECURRING ROLES: Winston (Kyle) and the like

EXTRAS: The N.D. (no dialog) people who play background, which is most of what Pasky et al were

The little four were not extras. Nor were they stars. They were under limited contracts (X out of Y episodes) or handshake freelance arrangements with a day rate. They were completely expendable and had any of them dropped out or been released they'd have been quickly replaced (the exception being Rand, who was conceived at a major supporting player but the character dropped when they found the yeoman character wasn't something they needed, especially the expense of someone under contract).

I suspect some of the hurt for the little four was seeing the initial yellow cover scripts where their parts might be bigger and then seeing those parts diminished over various rewrites. For instance, Sulu had a whole dialog with Kirk in the turbolift near the end of "The Naked Time" which was rewritten to eliminate him and have Kirk do the scene alone (dramatically correct, I've read it). This is why some shows have a policy of not showing scripts to any actors outside the stars until they are farther along in the process,

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Then there's this already cringeworthy (for a lot of reasons) press conference for Star Trek V where Shatner cannot remember Walter Koenig's name:

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That press conference defies parody. It was kind of like a Ron Burgundy scene. If nothing else, it teaches the value of preparation.

 

[Noname Given]

That press conference defies parody. It was kind of like a Ron Burgundy scene. If nothing else, it teaches the value of preparation.

IDK - it's not that bad. Ask any actor and most will say they hate doing press for a film, but realize its part of the business and usually, part of the contract.

 

[Qonundrum]

All the actors, including the ones who "hate" Shatner, agreed that he was a good director.

As story writer though ...

Keep in mind, given the success of TVH, Paramount was fairly adamant that TFF would be chock full of comedy and STV's more serious scenes are pretty dang solid when all factors are considered. The movie has potential, but time and money were whittled away and the comedy was demanded. If you and your co-architects were told to build a skyscraper but until now you'd only worked on subterranean dwellings using vastly different materials, you bet there will be stumbling blocks and a less-then-perfect product. Never mind having to guess what the public believes is funny at any given time, noting what will work for the most of said audience-going public since very few jokes appeal to 100%.

Also keep in mind that a lot of people say Trek took itself too seriously. Let's look at another facet: TVH onward show pretty fast how comedy does more to kill a show than it taking itself with sincerity and allowing suspended disbelief to remain suspended as opposed to breaking the fourth wall for a stupid wink and/or joke every x seconds or minutes. TVH still has some comedy working, but most of it has dated and extremely badly.

The fact TUC has Uhura acting like a dolt with linguistics is yet another insult to her character, no matter how funny it may have seemed at the time, and is far more damning proof Shatner was not the central problem for the franchise-strangling comedy routines (and other characters in TFF and TUC also are reduced to the butt of jokes, even Kirk - which is a saving grace for both movies if you think about it for a while.) GEN does the Tuesday gag way too many times, as well as going overboard with Data's continuity-borked emotion chip. STFC was also another run of allegedly nyuk nyuk moments that were cringey back then and haven't gotten any better. By the time we get to 2009, it's not just the same crass, cod comedy, but it's all based on the crew reduced to stereotypes so superficial that they make the characters' worst moments in TFF onward being positively dark and austere by comparison. "Oh look, Kirk is banging that green woman like how he always did in the 60s, he eats an apple too! Har-har, this is the best comedic moment in any Trek movie ever!!" Ugh... oh, Kirk rarely banged anyone , to cut a long story too short...

 

[FormerLurker]

Comedy in Star Trek from TFF onward has been of the "let's see how silly we can make this" variety instead of a more organic style that was more respectful toward the characters and situations. One of best jokes in SFS is the smile inducing "Where's the matter/antimatter inducer?" "This? No, this!" "That, or nothing!" which makes the crew look like they know what they're doing, even on a ship they know nothing about.

 

[Therin of Andor]

1. Disproportionate love for Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov
There is a segment of fandom which always thought these characters got the shaft and should be as much featured as the big three. (I first noticed this in book reviews, which always gave points to authors who featured these characters.)

This dates back to the almost-weekly appearances of George, Nichelle and Walter (and often Jimmy) at fan-run conventions in the late 70s and early 80s. You get the first hints of their growing popularity with fans from books such as "The Making of the Trek Conventions", "USS Enterprise Officers' Manual" and fan articles in "The Best of Trek" paperbacks. De, Majel, Gene and Rod Roddenberry were seen far less often and it was rare to get Shatner or Nimoy at a convention. The promise of "Phase II" stirred up fan thoughts of what might be in store for "the gang of four". Grace Lee Whitney bobbed up not long before Gene Roddenberry made a fuss about inviting her to return for ST:TMP. The actors were often on panels and had great repartee with fans, who helped them come up with approvals for first names (Walter Sulu, Penda Uhura), and reminisces of the characters' backgrounds (some of Uhura's from the "Star Trek Logs" TAS adaptations), which meant that minor references in TOS gained notoriety when appearing in Trek novels of the 80s.

2. Disproportionate love for Klingons
There is a segment of fandom which seems to think they are as cool and important as our heroes in the Federation/Starfleet. (I first noticed this in gaming—often games would have you play as Klingons.)

I recall seeing an explosion in interest in Klingons with ST III, and the ease of buying no-bake "dipping latex" for making forehead appliances easily. Of course, the original premise for that film called for Romulans, and a cloaked Romulan Bird of Prey.

It's also when the first stories of "Evil/Bad Shatner..." started making the rounds too. (Personally, I tought that was probably more due to they wanted interesting stories for their convention stage appearances.

Having met George Takei numerous times in the 80s and 90s, and Walter once, I can vouch that the Shatner stories were originally told with very little malice. Ditto Grace Lee. Comedy effect during con chats, told with nostalgic affection. But... as each actor started working on their autobiographies, the stories did get sharper, with more barbs and some resentment expressed. (Ditto Yvonne Craig, who told similar stories to Grace Lee's but with some anger/resentment, especially Shatner's tendency to cross his eyes in closeups and ruin his leading ladies' takes in romance scenes, meaning that his reaction shots got used.) Autobiographies without any "dirt" for the publicists to spin are a hard sell.

There are only 3 Klingon-perspective games: Klingon, Klingon Honor Guard, and Klingon Academy.

FASA had a boxed RPG supplement about Klingons, written by John M Ford (novelist of "The Final Reflection" and "How Much for Just the Planet?") and incorporating his world-building from those Pocket Books. ST III also spawned the "Klingon-English Dictionary", supposedly written by Marc Okrand in consultation with Maltz.

 

[NCC-73515]

Shatner's tendency to cross his eyes in closeups and ruin his leading ladies' takes in romance scenes, meaning that his reaction shots got used.

That apparently saved the famous Uhura kiss, cause he ruined the takes where they don't kiss

 

[Maurice]

That apparently saved the famous Uhura kiss, cause he ruined the takes where they don't kiss

Except Shatner himself claims it's the no-contact kiss that made it into the episode.

 

[Grant]

I saw Doohan at a convention in September of 86 promoting the upcoming Voyage Home and the previous year they had played the extended edition of Wrath of Khan on network television. Someone asked Doohan why his scene of Preston's death was cut down and he declared "because William Shatner wanted my scene cut out!" Then someone asked why and he replied "because he hates to see good acting!"--- implying that he was intimidated by Doohans acting skills.
Most of the morons at the convention cheered and applauded but I was appalled by the idiocy of that statement.
After that it reinforced my notion that some fans were immature dimwits and that the supporting characters were feeding off the adulation they were getting.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Saw a interview with Shatner where he insisted that during the run of TOS he had no idea what George Takei name was, and didn't know it for years after.

That actually sounds plausible to me. I can think of quite a few instances of not knowing co-workers' names at past jobs (full names, anyway), even after quite a few years. No lack of friendliness or civility on our part, I'm sure. We just did our jobs, went home.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I saw Doohan at a convention in September of 86 promoting the upcoming Voyage Home and the previous year they had played the extended edition of Wrath of Khan on network television. Someone asked Doohan why his scene of Preston's death was cut down and he declared "because William Shatner wanted my scene cut out!" Then someone asked why and he replied "because he hates to see good acting!"--- implying that he was intimidated by Doohans acting skills.

Actually, I can see Shatner wanting that scene cut, mainly because his own performance is pretty "off." In fact, most of the cut stuff has rough performances. Such as "that young man, he's my son!" "Faaaaaascinating." Which Meyer probably agreed with eventually since that dialog was cut from the recent blu ray Director's Cut, but the actual visuals remain (making that scene now totally pointless).

Doohan was just pissed because it was a great scene for him. The whole "nephew" bit was clunky, but leaving it in would have explained some of the emotional beats back then.

 

[Pauln6]

Actually, I can see Shatner wanting that scene cut, mainly because his own performance is pretty "off." In fact, most of the cut stuff has rough performances. Such as "that young man, he's my son!" "Faaaaaascinating." Which Meyer probably agreed with eventually since that dialog was cut from the recent blu ray Director's Cut, but the actual visuals remain (making that scene now totally pointless).

Doohan was just pissed because it was a great scene for him. The whole "nephew" bit was clunky, but leaving it in would have explained some of the emotional beats back then.

It plays far better in the novel where Peter is also friends with Saavik and we get to see them discussing the various issues they're having. Peter's death was almost meaningless in the movie other than Scotty's emotional reaction. I wonder if they thought Spock's death would be tough enough; no need to turn Peter into a character.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I actually read the novelization before I saw the film (long story short, I was punished that summer and forbidden from movies - until just before it left theaters because my mom wanted to see it) and was disappointed at how much wasn't in the movie.

 

[Grant]

No they cut it out because Shatner's acting was off. LOL

 

[Ssosmcin]

"We're alive because I knew something about theeeeese ships that he didn't."

Honestly, though, it's a clunky line. I'm sure Doohan would say Shatner screwed it up intentionally, but I don't put a lot of stock in that.