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Spoilers Terminator: Dark Fate Review and Discussion

Grade Terminator: Dark Fate

  • A+ “Come with me if you want to live.”

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • A

    Votes: 6 10.3%
  • A-

    Votes: 5 8.6%
  • B+ “I’ll be back.”

    Votes: 13 22.4%
  • B

    Votes: 8 13.8%
  • B-

    Votes: 6 10.3%
  • C+ “Chill out, dickwad.”

    Votes: 5 8.6%
  • C

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • C-

    Votes: 4 6.9%
  • D+ “All you know how to create is death and destruction!”

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • D

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • D-

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • F “I know now why you cry.”

    Votes: 5 8.6%

  • Total voters
    58
This movie would have been better served if it was an original story that had nothing to do with the Terminator franchise.
Well, that doesn't make any sense. It was overwhelmingly tied into being a Terminator movie from conception to screen, not some freestanding time travel movie that barely referenced the source material. If the story had been written like this but simply omitted the name "Terminator" it would have been sued for copyright infringement. It's obviously a Terminator film down to its bare bones regardless of what one thinks of its quality.

The forgetable Cloverfield universe spinoffs where they take existing freestanding stories and tack on a cheap thirty second bit to connect it to the original Cloverfield and use it as a marketing gimmick might get away with that (if you removed the Cloverfield reference, I mean), but this couldn't.
 
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It’s funny how so many people were shocked about John. I always assumed that was the case going into it. I still don’t think it was the correct choice.
I don't know if you're addressing my review, but just to clarify anyway, I wasn't shocked, I said I was conflicted about John's death. It was obvious from the trailers and behind-the-scene promotional materials that John was going to die, so there was no surprise element to it.

I just would have like to have seen a situation where John lives but is no longer humanity's savior because of changes in the timeline, and how he reacts to that. Is he relieved to have that weight and lack of choice about his life taken off of him, so he relaxes and lives in obscurity, or does he take up his mother's mantle and act as a mentor and trainer for Dani now that he sees Judgment Day is still coming but with a new leader of the Resistance.

Of course, I don't know how feasible that would have been with Furlong.
 
Decisions like those made in this movie did nothing to help that. They needed a more original idea than to kill off the legacy character and make a female version of the exact same story. It broke no ground, unlike the first two films.

I'm not really sure how much new ground they really broke to be honest, but that's another matter.

This didn't render the first two movies meaningless, anything but. A recurring (bum bum) theme amongst the franchise is that Judgement Day keeps coming about no matter the actions of our heroes. It might be delayed, it might take a slightly different form, but it happens anyway. It's not quite predestination in the hard sense but it does present a tension between the evident presence of free will and the inevitability of a future we created.

Questions of the nature of humanity and our ability to influence our fate are integral to the movies and this only expands on those, not detract. We've gone from seeing that Judgement Day is apparently inevitable to seeing that the rise of some messianic figure is also part of that scenario. John Conner was never necessary but without the events of the first films there'd be no lesson to learn from this one. The duality of Dani/Legion only achieves its' full significance when you consider it as a parallel of John/Skynet.

I honestly believe that far from being meaningless or rendering the early films meaningless this entry brings more to the table than any of the intervening films, both in terms of quantity and type.
 
None since 1991.

That's good, I'll be going back there next week....

Seriously though my point is I'm not sure they ever did anything which hasn't been addressed before in sci fi, they just brought existing themes together in new ways and managed to do so in a way which resonated and became, well, iconic.
 
Well killing off a fan favorite character and replacing him is probably not the way to restart a franchise. It’s the whole Star Wars is for girls crap that Kathleen Kennedy thought she could make work. So her idea is to kill off all legacy characters in a bad way to do that . It’s not working and fans are getting tired of all these fan favorite characters getting the shaft. Mark Hamil exercised and got into shape for a non lightsaber battle and died on a rock. Nice way to end a great character. TDF did it even worse. Unbelievable that this is considered good story telling.

Just some thoughts:

  • I loved Linda Hamilton being back as this badass mercenary but leading up to this seeing her in publicity photos I kept wishing this was some other intellectual property TV show where she's some special ops lady fighting terrorists or something. She looks dope. I thought her storyline was really great. I don't get why she couldn't get them back to the US on her own though. She's been a wanted fugitive for over two decades and never been caught.
  • I didn't really like Dani Ramos and I kept wondering during the film why no one was bringing up that while she was important to the future Grace came from, that future has already been altered so who knows how things will play out. Also John was important once and that didn't mean squat. Shouldn't the goal of the resistance be to just go back in time and make sure Legion stops getting built in the first place?
  • I don't remember anything about the music and I don't think that's a good thing. Was there any Brad Fiedel score in there, any ominous groaning noises like the ones that made T2 really tense?
1. Sarah had some relationship with the miltary guy who gae her the EMP's that would up damaged. Maybe she WAS some kind of special ops "consultant"?? It was a blink-and-you-missed-it thing, i think
2.Not sure how the whole time travel thing worked, or why Grace was enhanced. SPecifically for that purpose, or what? Seems kinda stramge... a loophole that didnt make sense (as opposed to Kyle going back just as SKynet was about to "die" and did the time travel as a last ditch effort)
3,.
4.In the end credits, they did the Terminator theme with SPanish guitar...and it seemed so peaceful...would love ot buy that version!
Saw the movie over the weekend. The franchise needs to stop. I understand what they did, but all the ideas were bad. Cameron himself came up with the John Connor twist, and it was about the same as George Lucas coming up with Jar Jar.

SPOILER:





By killing John Connor, they basically took the first two movies and rendered them meaningless. Where the first two movies were about John Connor being the man to save humanity, this one basically said that he never mattered, and if he never mattered, then why did it matter who Dani was?

What did Dani even do? She gave a speech to a couple of jerks?

Putting the politics aside, what did this movie bring to the table? What was in this movie that wasn't in any of the others? What did it add to the story?

If T2 established the "no fate" concept, then what was the benefit of stopping judgement day?

Seems like no matter what, machines launch a war and create terminators to kill humans in the past.

Why wouldn't Kyle Reese be in this movie?

Arnold brought a little zest when he was on screen, but do we really need to see Carl, the Terminator dad? That's like a bad SNL sketch.

I will accept that memories of the original timeline and the existence of T-800s didn't go away, and I will accept that there was another T800 that eventually killed John despite the timeline being wiped out, because if those are their time travel rules, fine. It's not BTTF or Star Trek before Abrams screwed up time travel.

But this movie basically was a retelling of the same story from past movies with nothing new added.

In some ways, it's like The Last Jedi. It wasn't just a bad movie, it took a dump on the good ones.

About the only thing about this movie that I liked as Grace. Of course, she's also not that original. She's Reese on steroids. A tougher terminator requires a tougher human to fight it. But it's the same idea. Grace thought of Dani as a mother figure. Reese was in love with Sarah in a world where the picture was all he had. Not identical, but close enough to not be original. But I did like Grace's action scenes in the first part of the movie.

It looks like this movie is bombing at the box office, and I can see why. As far as I'm concerned, this movie should be terminated and only the first 2 movies should count.

It's a shame.

I think what it brougth that was new was that it wasn't about a SPECIFIC person, but the ide of hope and inspiring others. Yeah, there seems to be a new "savior"...but what the "old" savior did was inspire a waitress to go from a simple life to becoming a guardian of the future...what she learned in tyring to protect John, she was able to carry over to protecting Dani...and she can now train her for the future war coming. Now she can do so without DCFS taking away her trainee.


Kyle wan't there because there was no John COnnor to try to train/recruit/develop him.

He wasn't important to history anymore.

I don't know if you're addressing my review, but just to clarify anyway, I wasn't shocked, I said I was conflicted about John's death. It was obvious from the trailers and behind-the-scene promotional materials that John was going to die, so there was no surprise element to it.


I just would have like to have seen a situation where John lives but is no longer humanity's savior because of changes in the timeline, and how he reacts to that. Is he relieved to have that weight and lack of choice about his life taken off of him, so he relaxes and lives in obscurity, or does he take up his mother's mantle and act as a mentor and trainer for Dani now that he sees Judgment Day is still coming but with a new leader of the Resistance.

Of course, I don't know how feasible that would have been with Furlong.

They kinda did that with Terminator 3...at least his state at the beginning of the movie, but changed him back to savior.

I think the arc with SARAH was far more interesting, and accomplished what you suggested, and in a much better story.
 
Or maybe they just didn't see increasing the body count to be in any way contributing to making it a better or more cerebral film?

I think the fact that terminator is first and foremost true hard sci fi sold by the action can't be overstated.

As for Grace wasn't she enhanced as part of rehabilitative surgery following life threatening injuries with the added bonus of making her more effective as a killer?
 
Well, that doesn't make any sense. It was overwhelmingly tied into being a Terminator movie from conception to screen, not some freestanding time travel movie that barely referenced the source material. If the story had been written like this but simply omitted the name "Terminator" it would have been sued for copyright infringement. It's obviously a Terminator film down to its bare bones regardless of what one thinks of its quality.

Of course you would have to alter the script dramatically, but someone in peril and someone protecting them isn't something exclusive to this franchise. Not all space based shows have to be Star Trek. Hell, look at Orville. That's a very similar concept but different enough not to infringe.

I don't think this movie would have been MUCH better without the Terminator tie in, but that tie-in definitely hurt more than helped. It rendered the first two films and the importance of John Connor meaningless. That alone makes the movie hard to stomach even if nothing else happened bad.

Plenty of movies took elements from other movies. How many "Die Hard on a X" movies were there?

I just would have like to have seen a situation where John lives but is no longer humanity's savior because of changes in the timeline, and how he reacts to that. Is he relieved to have that weight and lack of choice about his life taken off of him, so he relaxes and lives in obscurity, or does he take up his mother's mantle and act as a mentor and trainer for Dani now that he sees Judgment Day is still coming but with a new leader of the Resistance.

To me, humanity's savior should only be John Connor, because without that, then John's contribution was meaningless. Clearly, despite stopping Skynet, the same thing happened, which would mean that John could still be humanity's hope--just a little later.

But you bring up a very interesting point though, where John may not end up in the same role, but should still be very important.

Maybe John still gets things going, but is too old to be the boots on the ground, and that is where Dani comes in. Have an adult John Connor fighting alongside his mother and grace to protect Dani. All they accomplished in this movie was to substitute John for someone else, and that is what made the first two movies meaningless. Based on this movie, if John dies in the first two, who cares? Someone else will take his place.

This didn't render the first two movies meaningless, anything but. A recurring (bum bum) theme amongst the franchise is that Judgement Day keeps coming about no matter the actions of our heroes. It might be delayed, it might take a slightly different form, but it happens anyway. It's not quite predestination in the hard sense but it does present a tension between the evident presence of free will and the inevitability of a future we created.

Stopping Judgement Day was never the mission when the franchise started. It was about protecting John and making sure he fulfills his destiny as the savior of humanity. It wasn't until T3 that they decided that Judgement Day could not be stopped, but, the Terminators came back to kill John in the past because he was not just a threat, he was THE threat. Killing him in their present meant nothing. To simply dismiss that renders those movies meaningless because it renders John's life and accomplishments meaningless. By killing John, the machines changed nothing.

T2's message was there is no fate, but this movie was more of, "there's no point to this fight because no matter what, judgement day happens and someone will beat the machines."


Kyle wan't there because there was no John COnnor to try to train/recruit/develop him.

He wasn't important to history anymore.

It's a missed opportunity. They could have had Kyle in this movie. He could have even been the enhanced human, or someone else important. And we could have explored Sarah dealing with the loss of John, but getting Kyle back.
 
Stopping Judgement Day was never the mission when the franchise started. It was about protecting John and making sure he fulfills his destiny as the savior of humanity

Indeed, which was my point earlier in the other thread when I pointed out how that delineates man and machine. Skynet believed killing John Conner in the past would alter the future to one where it would never have to fight a serious resistance. It saw him and him alone as being the key factor in the equation, whereas in truth humans don't work that way.

They find something to believe in and there was never a reason it had to be him.

It wasn't until T3 that they decided that Judgement Day could not be stopped, but, the Terminators came back to kill John in the past because he was not just a threat, he was THE threat. Killing him in their present meant nothing.

It's not that simple. It isn't simply about what conclusions the drew but the questions it provokes in the viewer. We never really know if Judgement Day is genuinely inevitable but the repetition of the theme is significant enough to make us question what control we really posses, at least within that setting.

Questions are always more powerful than answers.

To simply dismiss that renders those movies meaningless because it renders John's life and accomplishments meaningless. By killing John, the machines changed nothing.

Yup. See above.

John never truly mattering doesn't mean the films never mattered, the two are not one and the same and narrative isn't everything here. The sense of inevitability in the rise of a symbol only works when TDF is viewed within the context of the earlier films. The question becomes less about the individual and more about the human need to encapsulate hope in the form of a human. That's the basis of an awful lot of who we are in the real world and as with all worthwhile sci fi it's the real world we inhabit that is being addressed, not the fictional one on screen.

The characters serve to teach us about ourselves by making us think, not simply to achieve some victory we can cheer for.

T2's message was there is no fate, but this movie was more of, "there's no point to this fight because no matter what, judgement day happens and someone will beat the machines."

I don't believe you can reduce these films down to one unambiguous message. That's much too reductionist.
 
John never truly mattering doesn't mean the films never mattered, the two are not one and the same and narrative isn't everything here. The sense of inevitability in the rise of a symbol only works when TDF is viewed within the context of the earlier films. The question becomes less about the individual and more about the human need to encapsulate hope in the form of a human. That's the basis of an awful lot of who we are in the real world and as with all worthwhile sci fi it's the real world we inhabit that is being addressed, not the fictional one on screen.

The only problem I see, is that I don't think it was smart from a storytelling/business perspective to go down the alley of, this is inevitable no matter what. Why do they think people will want to buy tickets to multiple movies where the end is the same and already known?
 
The only problem I see, is that I don't think it was smart from a storytelling/business perspective to go down the alley of, this is inevitable no matter what. Why do they think people will want to buy tickets to multiple movies where the end is the same and already known?
For the same reason Titantic (spoiler: The ship sinks at the end) is one of the top grossing films of all time. The journey was compelling and well executed in the eyes of the audience. It doesn't matter if the ultimate ending is known or heavily suspected. What matters is the journey of the characters and events of the story.

If the audience isn't invested in either the stoylines of the antagonists or the protagonists, and what they do to get from setup A to conclusion B; ultimately the story fails.
 
For the same reason Titantic (spoiler: The ship sinks at the end) is one of the top grossing films of all time. The journey was compelling and well executed in the eyes of the audience. It doesn't matter if the ultimate ending is known or heavily suspected. What matters is the journey of the characters and events of the story.

If the audience isn't invested in either the stoylines of the antagonists or the protagonists, and what they do to get from setup A to conclusion B; ultimately the story fails.

It is a bit different when you're doing it with a series of movies. Yeah, you have a one-off about Titanic. If they did six blockbusters about the Titanic sinking, knowing the end to all of them, people would begin to tune it out after a while. You're just watching the same thing over and over with small variations.

The people who own Terminator need to figure out how to move beyond that in a meaningful way, or else the majority of their audience is going to be angry loners watching on Showtime Extreme at 4AM, 15 months after the movie fails at the box office.
 
It is a bit different when you're doing it with a series of movies. Yeah, you have a one-off about Titanic. If they did six blockbusters about the Titanic sinking, knowing the end to all of them, people would begin to tune it out after a while. You're just watching the same thing over and over with small variations.

The people who own Terminator need to figure out how to move beyond that in a meaningful way, or else the majority of their audience is going to be angry loners watching on Showtime Extreme at 4AM, 15 months after the movie fails at the box office.
They were already AT that point you describe with/after T3 (IMO). James Cameron didn't think this film would work. He and a Studio thought there would be a big audience for it in the U.S. and Worldwide. Obviously it's not as big of an audience as they hoped for, but that's always the issue with creative endeavors like feature films; you don't know what an audience will finjnd appealing at a given time and latch onto.

The largest demonstration of this is the STAR WARS phenomena in 1977. For Lucas it was his passion project, and a film he always wanted to make. He'd been working on it in some form and had it in the back of his mind for nearly 10 years before he made it. He (and the studio in the end because of all the cost overruns and reshoots thought it was going to bomb and be a huge flop - and they might recoup via the merchandising of the kids toy line to some degree.
^^^
After it came out every studio thought doing something like it was a instant formula for success (it wasn't, but that didn't stop all the knock offs). And even though popular, all the sequels made less money. So yeah, there's no one 'magic' formula that will get butts in seats. That said - when something hits, mpost studios feels it's a surer bet to do a sequel then something untried.
 
Hence the title "Dark Fate". Certain things are destined to happen.

Which goes against the story of the second movie, and I think this change is one of the reasons people aren't liking the movie and it's not doing well.

Indeed, which was my point earlier in the other thread when I pointed out how that delineates man and machine. Skynet believed killing John Conner in the past would alter the future to one where it would never have to fight a serious resistance. It saw him and him alone as being the key factor in the equation, whereas in truth humans don't work that way.

They find something to believe in and there was never a reason it had to be him.

Which goes against the first two movies, and I think is wrong in general. There are great people that emerge throughout history that change the world. What this movie is saying is people like that don't actually exist and are not relevant. But people like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln were the right people at the right time, and no, this country would not exist as is without their genius.

John never truly mattering doesn't mean the films never mattered, the two are not one and the same and narrative isn't everything here. The sense of inevitability in the rise of a symbol only works when TDF is viewed within the context of the earlier films. The question becomes less about the individual and more about the human need to encapsulate hope in the form of a human. That's the basis of an awful lot of who we are in the real world and as with all worthwhile sci fi it's the real world we inhabit that is being addressed, not the fictional one on screen.

That's the problem. That goes very much against the grain of the first two films, which had John as the most important person of that century. What this movie is saying is nothing you do matters.

I don't believe you can reduce these films down to one unambiguous message. That's much too reductionist.

But that does come off as the message of this particular film, and I think it did the franchise such a disservice. The movie broke no ground, and added nothing to the franchise, and even took AWAY from the franchise.

The only problem I see, is that I don't think it was smart from a storytelling/business perspective to go down the alley of, this is inevitable no matter what. Why do they think people will want to buy tickets to multiple movies where the end is the same and already known?

This is a good point. What are the stakes now? If Dani dies, so what? Someone else will lead humanity past the machines.
 
Dani (and Sarah) had forewarning.

They can run around before judgement day securing weapons and sabotaging important resources that Legion needs.

Trying to get your shit together after the country has been nuked back into the stone age aint going to be worth poo, if you don't have a chance of winning without access to a few thousand EMP WMDs.
 
I don't get why she couldn't get them back to the US on her own though. She's been a wanted fugitive for over two decades and never been caught.
I suspect what they were going for is that it's pretty easy for a white person to cross the US-Mexico border in either direction with no questions asked, even one who is a wanted fugitive. But a Mexican trying to cross into the US in this political climate is damned near impossible to pull off.
Shouldn't the goal of the resistance be to just go back in time and make sure Legion stops getting built in the first place?
I doubt the resistance itself has time travel capabilities. Like the resistance in the other movies did with Skynet's time machines, they probably took over Legion's time machine after a Terminator was sent into the past, at which point the priority is to send someone else back to try to defeat the Terminator and protect its target.
 
Which goes against the first two movies, and I think is wrong in general. There are great people that emerge throughout history that change the world. What this movie is saying is people like that don't actually exist and are not relevant. But people like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln were the right people at the right time, and no, this country would not exist as is without their genius.

That may be your opinion but historians and philosophers have spent decades debating the extent to which individuals shape history or are symptomatic of larger movements. Another perspective is that certain conditions are prime breeding ground for certain figures to come to the fore. The human race is huge and inevitably there are always people with the correct temperaments and aptitude to adopt a given role. More to the point there will always be a willingness to accept the idea of someone even if the truth doesn't really match it.

The classic example is whether we would have seen WW2 without Hitler. My take is yes, because the conditions were ripe for civil unrest and eventual conflict. Had he not been there it would simply have been someone else following a similar path. People in Germany were looking for a strong leader, they were looking for someone to blame for their misfortune and they were desperate for a unifying cause. The situation was crying out for someone to do what he did and gain power by providing people with a perceived common enemy.

Regardless, though, you don't have to agree with any one interpretation of a film if you acknowledge that it is serving a positive role by making us think. That's what sci fi is supposed to do.

That's the problem. That goes very much against the grain of the first two films, which had John as the most important person of that century. What this movie is saying is nothing you do matters.

So? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Why should the franchise have one clear, unambiguous "message"? Why can't it ask questions and let us think for ourselves?

Exploring the question is much more provocative than simply providing a pre packaged answer, especially if it's the one people expect. You seem to want the latter, I'd rather the former.

But that does come off as the message of this particular film, and I think it did the franchise such a disservice. The movie broke no ground, and added nothing to the franchise, and even took AWAY from the franchise.

You've just said it yourself, it goes against the grain of the first two films. That's new ground right there.

This is a good point. What are the stakes now? If Dani dies, so what? Someone else will lead humanity past the machines.

Which opens up a very interesting set of philosophical problems and ones we aren't going to settle here.

Seems like exploring the tensions inherent between free will and predestination is entirely a worthy endeavour and transcends matters such as where the plot goes next.
 
Seems like exploring the tensions inherent between free will and predestination is entirely a worthy endeavour and transcends matters such as where the plot goes next.

But it likely can't be done in a two-hour sci-fi beat 'em up. Something that would be more fitting for a series on a streaming service.
 
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