We haven’t seen sufficient evidence to suggest the nature of the UFP presidency.
But the events of TUC does suggest the posting is a powerful one, if it drew in Klingon and Romulan conspirators for an assassination attempt...
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But the events of TUC does suggest the posting is a powerful one, if it drew in Klingon and Romulan conspirators for an assassination attempt...
This is a cynical way to look at something we have little knowledge of. We know the Intrepid was manned mostly by Vulcans and the T’Kumbra entirely by them. There could be a majority of ships manned by alien crews for all we know. If you buy the supplemental materials from TMP, the cloning Arcturians could supply billions of Starfleet troops almost overnight. Maybe the Aurellians too.
Seeing is believing. Except for non-Fed ships with full Klingon, Romulan and Cardassian crews, all Federation Starships seen on screen seem to be mostly human with a token alien (usually half-alien) or two. TOS: one half-Vulcan; TNG: one Klingon, one half-Betazoid, (androids don't count); DS9: one Trill, same Klingon, and later one Ferengis, (Kira and Odo are not Feds); VOY: one Vulcan, one half-Klingon, (part borg don't count, she's human and only a hitchhiker), one Talaxian and Ocampa mate (both not Feds); ENT: one Denobulan, one beagle; DSC: I don't watch it, so I don't know, but except for the alien first officer, most look human.
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And knowing is knowing. That part’s budget. Aliens have increased the easier it is to present them. DSC is replete with them.
In the lit, they’re even more plentiful (Titan series) and more unusual (The Wounded Sky, Dark Mirror, etc). I look forward to the day when humans are the minority on a Trek show....that shows Kirk’s second 5-year mission.
It's just that the writers haven't really put any effort into making us believe.
Say, when they can afford to put four starships on screen, they write that there are twenty-four, and then further write that this makes the villains think the heroes are not going to war because twenty-four is so pitifully little. So suddenly Starfleet is at the very least a hundred times stronger than the "seeing" would have it.
Yet the writing on nonhuman Starfleet employees is either lacking, or then doing the exact opposite: in DS9 chitter-chatter, say, every offscreen alien (and there aren't all that many to begin with) is treated as a fascinating and amusing exception ("Ooh, transparent skulls!" "Aah, tentacles and budding!"), a curiosity that differs from the thus-established standard.
Should we believe in a mostly-human Starfleet, then? Perhaps the writers don't feel passionately about it either way, but they are favoring that view nevertheless. And then there's this overwhelming tendency to have the ships named after human things, and for the top folks to be humans through and through. Really, before DSC, the Token Alien Admiral isn't even a thing: we barely get a couple of Vulcans, one Betazoid and one Bolian, most of whom are Eeeeevil Badmirals (not that the humans wouldn't be, too).
Timo Saloniemi
Say, when they can afford to put four starships on screen, they write that there are twenty-four, and then further write that this makes the villains think the heroes are not going to war because twenty-four is so pitifully little. So suddenly Starfleet is at the very least a hundred times stronger than the "seeing" would have it.
Yet the writing on nonhuman Starfleet employees is either lacking, or then doing the exact opposite: in DS9 chitter-chatter, say, every offscreen alien (and there aren't all that many to begin with) is treated as a fascinating and amusing exception ("Ooh, transparent skulls!" "Aah, tentacles and budding!"), a curiosity that differs from the thus-established standard.
Should we believe in a mostly-human Starfleet, then? Perhaps the writers don't feel passionately about it either way, but they are favoring that view nevertheless. And then there's this overwhelming tendency to have the ships named after human things, and for the top folks to be humans through and through. Really, before DSC, the Token Alien Admiral isn't even a thing: we barely get a couple of Vulcans, one Betazoid and one Bolian, most of whom are Eeeeevil Badmirals (not that the humans wouldn't be, too).
Timo Saloniemi
Well, Discovery is before DS9, so we have to accept that they were always there.
But, yeah, Starfleet is explicitly a human (United Earth) organization in Enterprise, and in the coming two centuries, seem to be carrying this stigma. It could be that we follow Human-centric ships. That it's easy to bunch up Humans together (or Vulcans together, or hypothetically other aliens) probably due to the environmental issues in having multiple races from multiple origins working in the same environment. DS9 explicitly explores this concept with Melora. TNG showed us some Benzites that had issues. Discovery showed us a couple people with weird helmets (although the novels say that was a tactical thing).
Spock was half-human. Enterprise had a full Vulcan who told us that other Vulcans had issues with how humans smelled. And, of course, Vulcans were huge snobbish elitists. So, having Vulcan ships makes some sense. Andorians might like the temperature down a few dozen degrees. Betazoids might be annoyed by the clothing regulations, and having to talk all the time. Deltans might not want to have to sign oaths of celibacy just to work. Bolians might need special toilets.
It's not segregationist. It's practicality. TMP showed us a huge crowd of many other aliens, but even the novels say that was an experiment. One that apparently ran its course by the time of TNG. The USS Titan, in the novels, goes into depths on how it's an exceptional case, and not just an unseen norm (although Picard probably won't be developing this).
Discovery is, perhaps, one of the most diverse crews, outside of TMP, we've ever seen. The core cast is human, other than Saru, but the extras are extra everything. Even the couple of mirror people we had, had issues with the bright lights. As long as one of them're around, I guess they have to keep everything dark. The multiculturalism of the USS Discovery might just be impractical when exported to a larger crew, like the USS Enterprise of the 2260s.
Humans, due to politics and history, are eager to leave their overcrowded planet, but other cultures are older, and have been on the intergalactic scene for centuries longer. More humans means more human ships means more get promoted to the admiralty (which primarily meets on Earth).
That's just my understanding and conjecture.
But, yeah, Starfleet is explicitly a human (United Earth) organization in Enterprise, and in the coming two centuries, seem to be carrying this stigma. It could be that we follow Human-centric ships. That it's easy to bunch up Humans together (or Vulcans together, or hypothetically other aliens) probably due to the environmental issues in having multiple races from multiple origins working in the same environment. DS9 explicitly explores this concept with Melora. TNG showed us some Benzites that had issues. Discovery showed us a couple people with weird helmets (although the novels say that was a tactical thing).
Spock was half-human. Enterprise had a full Vulcan who told us that other Vulcans had issues with how humans smelled. And, of course, Vulcans were huge snobbish elitists. So, having Vulcan ships makes some sense. Andorians might like the temperature down a few dozen degrees. Betazoids might be annoyed by the clothing regulations, and having to talk all the time. Deltans might not want to have to sign oaths of celibacy just to work. Bolians might need special toilets.
It's not segregationist. It's practicality. TMP showed us a huge crowd of many other aliens, but even the novels say that was an experiment. One that apparently ran its course by the time of TNG. The USS Titan, in the novels, goes into depths on how it's an exceptional case, and not just an unseen norm (although Picard probably won't be developing this).
Discovery is, perhaps, one of the most diverse crews, outside of TMP, we've ever seen. The core cast is human, other than Saru, but the extras are extra everything. Even the couple of mirror people we had, had issues with the bright lights. As long as one of them're around, I guess they have to keep everything dark. The multiculturalism of the USS Discovery might just be impractical when exported to a larger crew, like the USS Enterprise of the 2260s.
Humans, due to politics and history, are eager to leave their overcrowded planet, but other cultures are older, and have been on the intergalactic scene for centuries longer. More humans means more human ships means more get promoted to the admiralty (which primarily meets on Earth).
That's just my understanding and conjecture.
And people aren't federation members. People may be Federation citizens or subjects or nationals, but they can't be Federation members.
Planetary, system-wide, and interstellar governments can be Federation members.
So I don't see what saying that corporations aren't people has to do with the possibility or not of corporations being Federation members.o
It has to do with unity. Planets have to be unified to enter. That suggests corporations therein as well as nations. (Not explicitly stated no, but neither is the non-existence of the Secret Flying Spaghetti Monster Federation Emperor either.) Looking at my posts upthread; again, I come to memberworlds maintaining sovereignty because aliens are fundamentally different, being from different evolutionary origins. If they were all the same, then why wouldn't the idea be to unify as one people on a stellar as well as planetary level?
@Tim Thomason I'll try to reply to your points tomorrow, as a couple thoughts come to mind. And lists of awesome background aliens for the cafeteria.
Who were? The hero ship has a single alien character aboard in S1. Linus joins that crowd for S2. Perhaps there will be a third one for S3 or something? (Oh, and some visitors seem to be taken to the cafeteria as part of their tour, never to do a revisit. I don't blame them.)
Which is weird in itself. What happened to Starfleet, that explicitly Andorian organization from ENT (only with a funny translation for its alien name)? Or Starfleet, an explicitly Tellarite organization? At least we know that Starfleet, that explicitly Vulcan organization, was purged as if Stalin himself were at it - the whole thing probably ceased to exist in the following years.
On the other hand, all sorts of bipeds seem to be doing fine aboard DS9. What is the difference between the station and a Starfleet ship? A matter of physiology, or of psychology? Perhaps most species are averse to discipline, while humans are the masters of yielding?
Timo Saloniemi
Surprisingly large amounts of what we know about the Trek universe is based on a small number of references. The President is seen doing important presidential things like giving interstellar traffic advisories and officiating at court procedings (Imagine a actual head of state doing the same). While the Federation president does self-proclaim to be the Starfleet commander in chief, It very clear from numorious episodes that the Federation council exercises that power.
Maybe the next time we see the Federation president he or she will be opening a local candy store.
And prior to a sizeable portion of the crew being killed off, the engineer was Human, as was the ship's doctor.
If unity means the governing body, then a corporation can be unified. If unity means the populace, then the people who enter into being a member/employee of a corporation do so through choice, and not simply a accident of birth.
If you're a share holder you can even vote on important decisions, democracy.
I imagine that in some worlds, nation-states may be unified purely by choice as well — no birthright citizenship and free transportation out-of if you’d rather not stay.
Still, I think the idea is unity by species. There are innate differences between species. The idea is to maximize possible unity. The Federation is still unified overall, but worlds within must be fully unified as well.
One reason I favor corporations being federation members is I think it would be interesting if the members had a diverse collection of governing forms. Corporations, imperial governments (Andor?), aristocracy (Ardana), democracy (Earth?), royal systems (Betazed?), theocracy, etc..
The Sheliak Corporate? It’s kind of a shame we got the Grand Nagus, because the Ferengi might have been the perfect people to be ruled by allied-but-competitive interstellar-mega-corporations.
Some aliens to stick in the TOS Enterprise cafeteria when it's affordable to do so (not a complete list):
Human-like species from TOS:
Ardanans
Argelians
Rigelians (Humanoids)
Not-as-human-like species from TOS:
Andorians
Catullans (Space hippies in "The Way to Eden")
Ithenites
Loktarans (Silver-haired women in "Journey to Babel")
Makusians (Tall guys in "Journey to Babel")
Tiburonians
Violaceans (Purple woman in Journey to Babel")
Tellarites
Unknown appearance from TOS:
Rigelian (Vulcanoids)
Coridians
Far-out aliens from TAS:
Aurellians
Caitians
Edosians
Nasat
Phylosians?
Others...
Not-as-human-like species from TOS Movies:
Aaamazarites
Arcadians
Arcturians
Arkenites
Betelgeusians
Bzzit Khaht
Deltans
Efrosians
Kasheetans
Knormians
Megarites
Rigelians (Chelinoids)
Rhaandarites
Saurians
Xelatians
Zaranites
Zeosians
Others...
Aliens from ENT:
Denobulans
Kreetassans
Ktarians
Rigelians (from ENT)
Suliban
Tandarans
Xindi (Arboreals, Aquatics, Insectoids, Mammalians, Reptilians)
Xyrillians (through probably didn't join till after TOS)
Zaldans
Others...
Aliens from the JJ-verse:
Moncheskins
Roylans
The ones with hands in the back of their heads from Beyond...
The dark-skinned Twi'lek looking woman with the sharp teeth from ID...
That doctor with the big eyes from ST'09...
Others...
DSC Aliens:
Kelpians
Osnullus
Others...
And a whole bunch of non-humanoids that are actually the majority of intelligent life in the galaxy. Maybe the fabled Alpha Centaurians are non-humanoids. Or the inhabitants of another of the Rigel planets. Or the natives of Remus (Romii?) that the Romulans mated with the create the Remans.
Human-like species from TOS:
Ardanans
Argelians
Rigelians (Humanoids)
Not-as-human-like species from TOS:
Andorians
Catullans (Space hippies in "The Way to Eden")
Ithenites
Loktarans (Silver-haired women in "Journey to Babel")
Makusians (Tall guys in "Journey to Babel")
Tiburonians
Violaceans (Purple woman in Journey to Babel")
Tellarites
Unknown appearance from TOS:
Rigelian (Vulcanoids)
Coridians
Far-out aliens from TAS:
Aurellians
Caitians
Edosians
Nasat
Phylosians?
Others...
Not-as-human-like species from TOS Movies:
Aaamazarites
Arcadians
Arcturians
Arkenites
Betelgeusians
Bzzit Khaht
Deltans
Efrosians
Kasheetans
Knormians
Megarites
Rigelians (Chelinoids)
Rhaandarites
Saurians
Xelatians
Zaranites
Zeosians
Others...
Aliens from ENT:
Denobulans
Kreetassans
Ktarians
Rigelians (from ENT)
Suliban
Tandarans
Xindi (Arboreals, Aquatics, Insectoids, Mammalians, Reptilians)
Xyrillians (through probably didn't join till after TOS)
Zaldans
Others...
Aliens from the JJ-verse:
Moncheskins
Roylans
The ones with hands in the back of their heads from Beyond...
The dark-skinned Twi'lek looking woman with the sharp teeth from ID...
That doctor with the big eyes from ST'09...
Others...
DSC Aliens:
Kelpians
Osnullus
Others...
And a whole bunch of non-humanoids that are actually the majority of intelligent life in the galaxy. Maybe the fabled Alpha Centaurians are non-humanoids. Or the inhabitants of another of the Rigel planets. Or the natives of Remus (Romii?) that the Romulans mated with the create the Remans.
I'd prefer this. But, to your point, Trek is just legit stupid. Don't get me started with the DS9 battles. And, as others have said, TOS did space battles more realistically, having been too poor to do them as later series did.
Because it's a TV show and it's a wink to the audience. Still, heed the clue – they're more diverse than we're seeing.
Admirals, ambassadors, high commissioners...their point generally is to be drama for our crew – ergo, the inordinate number of eeeevil ones. Still, the head of Starfleet Academy on DS9 is a Bolian. A four-star admiral from the JAG office is a Vulcan on DS9. I think there was another female Vulcan admiral in an episode of DS9 too. On TNG, one-third the triumvirate in charge of Starfleet Command in "Conspiracy" (and the leader(?) one at that) is a Vulcan. And, as you mentioned, on DSC, there's one of each Federation founder species in the admiralty running, what was that, Starfleet Intelligence? ...It's not a priority for TPTB, but the aliens are there, here and there.
The facility seen on Vulcan in ENT is literally established as the United Earth Embassy. Its security appears to be provided by United Earth Starfleet personnel in 2154 -- but given Archer's insistence in ENT Season Two that the UESF is not a military force, I imagine another organization may have been providing security at the U.E. Embassy before then. But that's just a guess.
Fuck the exclusive jurisdiction of Congress and fuck the Residency Act of 1790. These are arcane laws whose only practical effect in the real world is to prevent the fulfillment of the civil rights and liberties of the residents of the District of Columbia. The law -- and the Constitution -- should be changed.
Is Parliament Hill officially not part of the Province of Ontario? Is the Reichstag legally not a part of the State of Berlin? There's not really a compelling reason to legally separate the Federation capitol (called the Palais de la Concorde in the novels) from the rest of United Earth.
Nope. The canon is ambiguous -- one might also speculate that the Federation Council has rotating meetings on every Federation planet. However, while there is no canonical evidence to oppose the Federation government meeting at other locations, there is also no canonical evidence to support their meeting on any planet other than Earth.
In the novels, Deneva becomes its own separate Federation Member State with its own president and its own Federation Councillor by the 2370s.
The canon has established that the Federation gets to decide whether or not to allow a given planetary or multiplanetary state to join the UFP. I think that the existing Member States' Federation Councillors would simply vote against "flags of convenience" joining the UFP as nominally separate members actually under an existing Member State's thumb.
I mean, it may well be that the Federation's basic idea of proper governance is just not compatible with every species out there and some cultures will just never join the UFP in the first place.
This would almost certainly be negotiated during the process of their becoming a Member State. The Federation Council might well demand a certain level of unity amongst them before accepting them as Members.
Canonically, it has been established that there is an elected Federation President who is commander-in-chief of the armed forces ("Paradise Lost"), who sets Federation foreign policy (TUC), who has the authority to declare States of Emergency over parts of Federation territory that can suspend certain civil rights and liberties during a crisis ("Homefront"), who can preside over certain special courts-martial of Starfleet officers (TVH), and who has the authority to pardon people who have been convicted of crimes ("Will You Take My Hand?"); a Federation Cabinet subordinate to the President ("Extreme Measures"); a well-developed bureaucracy within an executive branch (every single "Federation Department of whatever" from throughout the shows); a Federation Council ("Amok Time") comprised of representatives of Federation Member States ("Rapture") with the authority to pass binding law over the entirety of Federation territory ("Forces of Nature"); a Federation judicial system which includes Federation grand juries ("The Ascent"); and a Federation Supreme Court possessing the power of judicial review over statutory law ("Dr. Bashir, I Presume?"). It has also been established that there is a Federation Constitution ("The Perfect Mate") which enumerates certain protections for civil rights and liberties to all persons within Federation territory and aboard Federation starships ("The Drumhead," "Author, Author").
So, the difference here is that the United Nations is an international organization that lacks sovereignty and cannot make foreign policy. There is no "U.N. ruling counsel." There's the General Assembly and the Security Council, but those are essentially international bodies that exist to provide a forum for the conduct of international relations between sovereign states. The U.N. has certain authorities delegated to it by treaty, but it does not have the powers we have seen the Federation possess.
I mean, this gets back to the old question of whether or not a federal state should represent all of its constituent polities equally or in proportion to their population level. In real life, I'm in favor of proportional representation -- but in the world of Star Trek, where we're talking about trying to represent not just entire planets, but possibly entire multi-planetary states within a Federation comprised of trillions... I'm not entirely convinced that the scale is not so large as to render proportional representation and or polity representation basically the same in terms of practical effect. When the scale gets that large, it's questionable whether or not one way or the other is truly more democratic.
This. This this this.
Yeah, no. The people of the District do not want that, and the people of Maryland do not want that. Their political cultures are distinct and conflicting, and they don't want to be forced under one roof.
You might get the peoples of the District and of the counties surrounding the District to agree to join together to form a new state. That would actually make sense, since the economies and political cultures of the counties surrounding D.C. are much more tied to D.C. than to Annapolis or Richmond.
As others have explained, this is a ridiculous argument made from a place of unexamined privilege.
It is also absurd to expect a community of over half a million people to move in order to receive their natural right to representation in the legislature.
150 member WORLDS. I assume the Federation definition of "world" is important. They must have requirements for minimum population size, etc. If you don't meet the minimum requirements, then you may join the Federation, but you won't get a vote or an equal vote (tossed in with a conglomeration of other small worlds with only one vote). YMMV
It is probably a lot more useful to think of it in terms of member states than in terms of planet. Like, Hawaii is not part of the Union because it is a series of islands; it is part of the Union because it has statehood. It's a question of political incorporation, not geography per se.
That is incredibly dystopian, and I don't remember it at all.
Yes, D.C. statehood is the only remedy.
No, there's one other reason: If the District of Columbia were granted statehood, it would be the only state in the Union that would be majority non-white and majority-Black. D.C. statehood would be a profound blow against white domination of our political structures, and the modern Republican Party will never consent to that. Same reason they'll never consent to Puerto Rican statehood.
The only time we ever see the Federation President presiding over the Council is in TVH; it is implied that this is an extraordinary circumstance. We don't see any other indication of the relationship between the President and the Council -- we don't know, for instance, if the President is normally the presiding officer of the Council.
What we do know is that his full title is "President of the United Federation of Planets." It seems highly probable to me that there is a difference between the President of the Federation and the President of the Federation Council, just like how there's a difference in real life between President of the United States and President of the United States Senate.
The Federation President is established to be an elected position in "Paradise Lost." That strongly implies to me that it is a popularly-elected position. The only democratic government of which I am aware that features a non-ceremonial President elected by the legislature is the Republic of South Africa, where the President of the Republic is elected by the National Assembly (the lower house of Parliament). This is unusual amongst most national constitutions, and it stems from the fact that the South African Presidency evolved out of the old apartheid government's prime ministership.
The Federation presidency as depicted in the canon seems comparable in authority over the Federation and its Member States to the U.S. presidency. Like, we don't see him asking the Federation Council for permission to invade Klingon space to retrieve Kirk and McCoy in TUC.
Sure there is. The Federation Council gets to make binding law over all Federation territory and vessels ("Force of Nature"), the Federation Constitution guarantees certain civil rights and liberties throughout all of Federation territory and on all Federation vessels ("The Perfect Mate"), and the Federation President can declare States of Emergency over areas of Federation territory that suspend certain civil rights and liberties during a crisis ("Homefront").
The closest comparison would be the European Union, to which the E.U. Member States have clearly delegated some of their sovereignty and which may yet evolve into a sovereign state in its own right.
The comparison does not work at all with either the U.N. or NATO, neither of which possess defined territories over which they are sovereign, nor constitutions that enumerate certain civil rights and liberties, nor armed forces that obey their governments, nor actual governments per se.
No, we've seen a lot of evidence to suggest the nature of the UFP presidency. We haven't seen enough to get a full picture, but we do know some important things from the powers we have seen canonical Federation Presidents exercise.
All two dozen of them, out of a fleet of hundreds and a Federation of hundreds of planets. We haven't seen enough starship or starbase crews to make educated inferences.
Star Trek Beyond established that the MACOs were absorbed into the Federation Starfleet after the UFP was established. The novels are non-canonical, but the Rise of the Federation miniseries establishes that the United Earth Starfleet, Andorian Imperial Guard, and Vulcan, Tellarite, and Alpha Centauri space forces were merged into the new Federation Starfleet. Each of the services continued to exist as divisions of the new UFP Starfleet (under the command and control of the Federation government, not their originating member state governments) for at least the first century of the Federation Starfleet's existence.
Starfleet officers refer to him as the commander-in-chief in "Paradise Lost."
Considering the Federation's attitude towards Ferengi capitalism, this seems implausible.
The security officer killed in the bombing of the embassy is said to be Corporal Askwith. True, he did appear to be in Starfleet, but since Starfleet does not have the rank of Corporal, I've always suspected that Askwith was supposed to be a MACO, and that it was just a production mistake that put him in a Starfleet uniform.
So in my headcanon, security at the UE Embassy was actually provided by the MACOS. Assuming that Archer was on the level when he said that the UE Starfleet was non-military in nature (and I see no reason not to take him at his word), it would certainly be within the MACOS' wheelhouse.
Fair point. It also could have been a third agency with a uniform similar to the UESF.