"Cogenitor" discussion

[Yanks]

Ants have only one breeder, a bunch of workers, and drones to fertilize.

This confuses me. IS there any reason to oppress and enslave them? I don't get any. I mean, so they're 'needed' to breed. 3% of the population is still a pretty big amount. No reason why they can't be educated or free,

I think all we can deduce from the episode is it can't handle freedom/liberty as we know it.

Trip teaches it to read and it kills itself.

I don't see 3% as big by reproduction standards we (humans) are familiar with, but we don't know much here either. As Phlox said maybe it's not a sexual thing, maybe it's just a enzyme thing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Are we going with "it" as their personal pronoun?

I'm calling bullshit on Trip teaching the congenitor to read English in an afternoon.

Yes, she learnt how to read very quickly, but it was the Universal Translator that did most of the heavy lifting, not Trip.

 

[Yanks]

Are we going with "it" as their personal pronoun?

I'm calling bullshit on Trip teaching the congenitor to read English in an afternoon.

Yes, she learnt how to read very quickly, but it was the Universal Translator that did most of the heavy lifting, not Trip.

We really don't have a choice.

"It" is it

No, she was reading by the end of Trip's personal tutelage. I don't remember anyone holding a UT.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Their race is supposedly super-smart and the Captain learns all of Shakespeare in an afternoon.

And Phlox points out the Cogenitors are also super-smart, just kept uneducated.

I think all we can deduce from the episode is it can't handle freedom/liberty as we know it.

To be blunt, they didn't kill itself because Trip taught them to read. They killed themselves because Archer said they'd never read again by denying them asylum.

They'd rather die than go back to slave planet.

 

[Yanks]

Their race is supposedly super-smart and the Captain learns all of Shakespeare in an afternoon.

And Phlox points out the Cogenitors are also super-smart, just kept uneducated.



To be blunt, they didn't kill itself because Trip taught them to read. They killed themselves because Archer said they'd never read again by denying them asylum.

They'd rather die than go back to slave planet.

That's your opinion.

"They"?

"Them"?

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

That's your opinion.

"They"?

"Them"?

Yes, they and them. Is that a problem?

 

[Charles Phipps]

That's your opinion.

"They"?

"Them"?

No, it's in the show. Phlox said it. They're as smart as the others.

What kind of moral is, "And these aliens really have a bunch of dumb people they oppress but it's okay if they don't know better unless you tell them."

 

[Yanks]

Yes, they and them. Is that a problem?

What's that supposed to mean? We met one, not more than one. They and them refer to multiple cogenitors.

No, it's in the show. Phlox said it. They're as smart as the others.

What kind of moral is, "And these aliens really have a bunch of dumb people they oppress but it's okay if they don't know better unless you tell them."

I never said the cogenitors weren't smart. What we saw was when one received some education, it killed itself. They could very well be unique in their society and can't handle it. We really don't know, but it could very well be exactly why they are treated the way we saw in the episode.

 

[Charles Phipps]

What's that supposed to mean? We met one, not more than one. They and them refer to multiple cogenitors.

In real life, you can use they as a singular.

I never said the cogenitors weren't smart. What we saw was when one received some education, it killed itself. They could very well be unique in their society and can't handle it. We really don't know, but it could very well be exactly why they are treated the way we saw in the episode.

I thought the episode had it be that they were horrified of going back to a life of ignorance to the point of suicide.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Plato's cave.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

What's that supposed to mean? We met one, not more than one. They and them refer to multiple cogenitors.

What that’s supposed to mean is that your ignorance is astounding. Trans people and other non-binary folks often use those terms to avoid either male or female pronouns. Come join the 21st century.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Plato's cave.

Again, I may have misread this episode but I liken it to Birthright. The Cogenitor is going through the motions of their shit life because they never experienced being treated as anything other than crap. Then they have their intellect stimualted, were taught to be treated like a person, and had the boundless possibilities of serving on a starship opened to them. Then they had that ripped away.

To use an analogy, imagine that you found out STAR TREK IS REAL or close enough. You are taken from your life and you get to explore the galaxy, visit new races, and have your life enriched beyond measure (assume your loved ones will join you on, say, Paradise Earth in the 24th century).

You find out its an error and you're returned to Earth. You may not be suicidal but it'd be a gut punch. Now double that because you're not a slave like the Cogenitor and then again because you're never going to be allowed to read or use the internet again again.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That nerd from Galaxy Quest.

 

[Guy Gardener]

TUCKER: Trip Tucker. Welcome aboard.
COGENITOR: (startled) Hello.
CALLA: It has no name. It's our cogenitor.
TUCKER: Cogenitor?
CALLA: We're hoping to have a baby.
TUCKER: Ah.

Individuals today can chose to be referred to as they and them, becuase they identify as neither a him or a her. This is not new. Just accept that this is the new normal and move on, becuase it's the kind, and right thing to do, unless you feel like being regarded as backward and bigoted.

CONGENITORS DO NOT HAVE NAMES!!!!!!!

Institutional deVissianation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Had a thought.

The original pilot.

Episode minus one.

Pike, in a flashback, is seduced by an Orion Slave girl.

Maybe she didn't get very far, but she is undulating in a way that all the blood rushes to the centre of his body, while her pimp is hot-wiring the Enterprise.

Point is, 90 years after Archer, the Federation tolerates slavers slaving slaves.

A hundred years after that, Picard in "the perfect mate" is legally required to tolerate slavery, but just can't quite do it.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Had a thought.

The original pilot.

Episode minus one.

Pike, in a flashback, is seduced by an Orion Slave girl.

Maybe she didn't get very far, but she is undulating in a way that all the blood rushes to the centre of his body, while her pimp is hot-wiring the Enterprise.

Point is, 90 years after Archer, the Federation tolerates slavers slaving slaves.

A hundred years after that, Picard in "the perfect mate" is legally required to tolerate slavery, but just can't quite do it.

I think you're remembering that wrong. Pike said he fantasized about an Orion slave girl, was told off by his version of McCoy, and then has the illusion used to seduce him.

Clearly McCoy thought it was a horrifying fantasy but assumed Pike wasn't serious (and he probably wasn't--just venting).

 

[Guy Gardener]

Dr Boyce?

In a novel by Peter David, the Rift, Spock says to himself "This man is so annoying, but he is retiring soon, and thankfully I cannot imagine that his replacement could be nearly as frustrating."

A rift, to a far away planet opens every 70 years in Federation space. We see Spock go through the rift and deal with that planet twice, once as a cadet, and then as a movie era Captain.

 

[Prax]

I've never seen you this enthusiastic about a thread before.

The best way to have handled this was to get to know the Vissians first, form a friendship, and then when the time is right, using great tact and care, open a discussion with them about human beliefs and practices, God-given rights, so on and so forth, ask them about the cogenitors, and tell them what you think(as humans) of the cogenitors.

They were, and would have been very receptive, and probably still would be receptive after the events of the episode, but if the situation were handled differently, no one would have died. Trip forced a situation where Archer was forced to choose between allowing the cogenitor to stay aboard or sending her back. He really only ever had one option besides making enemies of the Vissians(which would ensure that all the other cogenitors would continue to live as they do).

You find out its an error and you're returned to Earth. You may not be suicidal but it'd be a gut punch. Now double that because you're not a slave like the Cogenitor and then again because you're never going to be allowed to read or use the internet again again.

If Archer had not returned her, she would have lived a life (on Earth?) as a free person? What about all the other cogenitors? Who's going to help them? Not humans, that's for sure. The Vissians would be outraged, and weary of any Earth ships in the future. Not to mention if Archer had not returned her, the Vissians would be sending petitions to Starfleet Command, Earth's governments, the Vulcans, et al, and someone with more authority than Archer would send her back anyway.

 

[Yanks]

You really need to get over yourself.

There is no indication whatsoever that our cogenitor has issues with any pronoun.

You inject crap where there is none.

I'm sure it made you feel important.

I thought the episode had it be that they were horrified of going back to a life of ignorance to the point of suicide.

Exactly. That doesn't indicate some mental problems?

It could be gleamed that these cogenitors are incredibly selfish. Suicide is a morbidly selfish act. The are only 3% of the population... it quite possibly could be too much of a risk to "educate" them.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That's the point.

It has no problem with being called it.

It has no problem with having no name.

It has no problem being illiterate.

It has no problem with being pimped.