Helping those filthy Baku!
Where was the Enterprise during the Dominion War?
- Thread starter Trekkie27
- Start date
It really does seem like a lack of imagination. I'm sure a large part of the thinking was that DS9 needed to establish its own identity and not be beholden to TNG, but they really did miss an opportunity to do something bold and interesting with their now-larger universe.
You're right, the Quark cameo on DS9 was very pointless and only mildly amusing. As much as I enjoyed Bashir in "Birthright", you could cut him completely out of the episode without it affecting the plot at all. Lursa and B'Etor on DS9 felt utterly forced and unnecessary.
Oh, well.
And for the majority of the war, not even the wormhole mattered to the Dominion. When it was in the hands of a supernatural enemy, its strategic value was pretty much nil. (To the Feds, too, as even if one of their ranks had at least some influence over the supernaturals, the Federation had no real wartime use for the Gamma shortcut.)
Which is fine and well for allowing the telling of stories that touch upon the war only peripherally for most of two wartime seasons. Perhaps the "actual" war stories would have involved Picard and pals?
Timo Saloniemi
Just brainstorming off the top of my head. An easy lay-up crossover would've been something with DS9 and the TNG episode Preemptive Strike. Where Ro Laren infiltrates the Maqui. Her missiom was to assist in taking them down, but ends up defecting to them. Imagine the interactions between Ro and Kira. Both Bajorans, both women who grew up in Cardassian occupied concentration camps, and both working with the Federation for a better Bajor. Ro obviously takes the wrong turn, but Kira doesn't allow herself to be entrapped in such a scheme. Even though season 2 Kira sympathized with the Maqui.
Involve Picard and Sisko by having a collection of Starfleet officers highjacking a Nebula class starship. Fast and powerful enough to rival a Galaxy Class. In the hands of terrorists, who would undoubtedly use something that powerful to trigger a war with Cardassia. Far more effective than those Maqui raiders we saw them use.
Make DS9 the base of operations for both crews to plan and move out from. Dial up the action by granting Riker a promotion and his own ship for the mission. Since DS9 only had runabout shuttle crafts during this time.
Easily have a two part episode there. One for each show, bundled together.
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Great ideas, and would have been well done if made.
I think the problem was syndication. Since they were syndicated, a crossover event like that would have to be aired properly. I don't think Paramount was ready to do something like that during that era.
We can do it now because of all the easily accessable ways to catch crossover events.
If TNG and DS9 were produced today, I'm certain we would have true crossover events. As such, the only crossovers we got during that time were the novels. (INVASION! 4-parter and DAY OF HONOR 4-parter, for instance.)
I think the problem was syndication. Since they were syndicated, a crossover event like that would have to be aired properly. I don't think Paramount was ready to do something like that during that era.
We can do it now because of all the easily accessable ways to catch crossover events.
If TNG and DS9 were produced today, I'm certain we would have true crossover events. As such, the only crossovers we got during that time were the novels. (INVASION! 4-parter and DAY OF HONOR 4-parter, for instance.)
But Preemptive Strike is a crossover episode. It's a direct sequel to "The Maquis" two parter on DS9. It's also, however, a character focus episode for Ro, and a conclusion to her story.
It's interesting. The complaint I always hear is that early DS9 was "relying on TNG by shoehorning its characters into its show," and I hear it even more often for Voyager(which had even more crossover).
Something like "Ro and Kira team up" seems like something that might happen in a novel(or comic book. "Crossover events" is a comic book thing, right?), but would really serve no good purpose on the actual show.
It's interesting. The complaint I always hear is that early DS9 was "relying on TNG by shoehorning its characters into its show," and I hear it even more often for Voyager(which had even more crossover).
Something like "Ro and Kira team up" seems like something that might happen in a novel(or comic book. "Crossover events" is a comic book thing, right?), but would really serve no good purpose on the actual show.
Sequel =/= Crossover. Not in the way most people think about it.
Besides, Preemptive Strike and The Maqui were both preambles to the then upcoming VOY show. Attempts to inspire intrigue in the new Trek. VOY never kept that promise that TNG and DS9 set up for it. The two episodes work well enough as standalone.
The Ro and Kira subplot is the show that there was tangible drama there to explor. Between a popular recurring character on TNG and a main character on DS9. Remember, the role of Kira Nerys on DS9 was originally written for Ro Laren. But the actress didn't want to make that kind of commitment.
Kira and Ro are similar. Kira is a former terrorist/freedom fighter with Maqui sympathies. Ro Laren is a Starfleet officer, who would be at the rank of Lt CMDR, had she not be court martialed. Early Kira was climbing out of the darkness, while Ro Laren sinks into it by joining the Maqui. The drama comes from how simlar they are and how they differ. Ro threw her career, friendship and mentor relationship with Picard away to join the Maqui. Kira was hostile to Sisko and Starfleet at the beginning of DS9. When the Maqui first arrived, Kira was sympathetic to their cause. However, Kira would not betray Sisko, Dax, Odo and Bajor to join the Maqui. She'd be tempted but would not let herself be entrapped. Mainly because Kira is a recurring character and Ro and TNG were at the end of their respective stories.
Sisko, Picard and Riker justify their presence by virtue of Maqui sympathizing Starfleet officers stealing a Nebula Class (equal in performance to a Galaxy Class). Not far fetched, when you consider Chakotay, Cal Hudson, Michael Eddington, Tom Riker, Ro Laren and others defected from Starfleet.
The Maqui and their sympathizers (including Kassidy Yates) were using DS9 for trafficking and other purposes for years on DS9. Perfect for Odo and Worf to investigate.
Have Dax & Data and Geordi & O'Brien try to track down the stolen Starfleet vessel.
Beverly and Bashir..... Right, moving on.
Have Deanna assist with interviewing and interrogating capture Maqui members,
Let Gul Dukat drop by and have an exchange with Picard. Mention Gul Macet (another Cardassian Mark Alaimo played in TNG season 4). Say he's Dukat's twin brother.
Have a debate between the crews on how to stop the Nebula. Take it alive or destroy it and lose all hands. Including former Federation and Starfleet personnel. if they refuse to surrender peaceful or provoke the ENT-D into a battle.
The story writes itself. It's more than just Kira and Ro.
As MACO pointed out, a loose sequel is not the same as a crossover. It, of course, wasn't a direct sequel to "The Maquis", it just picked up that vague story thread, which was actually first laid in TNG's "Journey's End."
Who complained that DS9 shoehorned TNG characters into it? Because that's a ridiculous complaint. I'll allow that Q-Less was ill-conceived fan service, as was the pointless, but thankfully brief and inconsequential appearance of the Klingon sisters, but beyond that, it's not an argument that carries a lot of water.
I don't agree with all of your specific suggestions, but I agree that the Maquis storyline would have been the best way to do a crossover episode.
Kira/Ro would have been great, but not as a "team up", only if they found themselves on opposite sides. Ro is drawn to the Maquis and empathizes with them. Kira, despite severe mixed feelings, realizes she can't support the Maquis and can't condone their illegal, violent actions, despite doing almost the exact same thing back during the Occupation.
Just to play devil's advocate (because I don't believe in that argument either), O'Brien and then definitely Worf being in the main cast? Not exactly shoehorned, but I know that those two were complaints at the time.
If that's the case, then a story began on TNG, was continued on DS9, then continued on TNG, then continued again on DS9. While "Preemptive Strike" isn't exactly "The Maquis part 3," it is a direct sequel. Admiral Nechayev goes to Picard about some colonists, a settlement is reached. Then a cardassian ship is sabatoged. A group called "The Maquis" claims responsibility. The admiral goes to Sisko to resolve the issue. He stops the immediate threat, but fails to resolve or reason with the Maquis while in their infancy. He also discovers that the Cardassians were shipping weapons to their colonists. She then goes back to Picard and asks him to get an infiltrator into the Maquis, so that Starfleet can arrest them. She references the events of both the DS9 episode and the earlier TNG episode.
Then there's another DS9 episode(The Defiant) which follows up on both TNG's Preemptive Strike(even featuring the same Maquis character Ro was working with, played by the same actress), and TNG's Second Chances, and features Riker. By this point, TNG has ended, and DS9 continues the Maquis storyline on its own(which isn't so much about the Maquis, but Sisko's vendetta).
Is it Marvel Infinity War? No. Is it "X-men teams up with Justice league"? No, but it is genuine crossover, and done in the areas/storylines that make the most sense for a crossover to occur between TNG and DS9, just like Voyager used the most logical ways for a crossover to occur on their show later on(Q, contact with Starfleet, Barclay, Barclay and Zimmerman, Barclay and Troi, etc).
Most recently and from memory? The Pensky File, which brought it up quite often in early DS9, but I've heard/seen similar complaints many times over the last few years; that early DS9 was relying on TNG characters, format of storytelling, plot devices, etc, and that DS9 didn't 'get good' until it really dedicated itself to being its own thing.
Which is sorta weird, because DS9 only began to change when it added a TNG character, about haflway into the game...
(O'Brien being a "TNG character" is a bit excessive IMHO. He got "The Wounded" and "Rascals", plus one "Evil Doppelgänger" plot and lots of background extra bits. Not much more of a TNG character than, say, Quark was.)
Timo Saloniemi
(O'Brien being a "TNG character" is a bit excessive IMHO. He got "The Wounded" and "Rascals", plus one "Evil Doppelgänger" plot and lots of background extra bits. Not much more of a TNG character than, say, Quark was.)
Timo Saloniemi
O'Brien was absolutely a TNG character, just like Vorik was a Voyager character. He was there from season 1 up until he left during season 6
It's funny to hear people complain about the scarce TNG characters that made appearances on early DS9. Q, Vash, B'etor and Lursa, really? It's not like DS9 was setting the world on fire. Hell, Way of the Warrior in season 4, was a relaunch of the show. Since DS9 was threatened with cancellation, if things didn't tighten up. Same thing happened with VOY and Scorpion. Both shows got a shot in the arm by a new direction and a new character added to the roster. Worf and Seven, respectfully.
It's funny that you hear less complaints about DS9 taking nearly all of TNG's writers during the 7 season or all the elements DS9 took from Babylon 5. *ZING!!!*
DS9 needed all the help it could get at the start. The Bajoran melodrama, the dick dastardly Dukat schemes of the week, early season clunkers and the early Dominion episodes they painted by ear, were all we had to look forward to.
It's funny that you hear less complaints about DS9 taking nearly all of TNG's writers during the 7 season or all the elements DS9 took from Babylon 5. *ZING!!!*
DS9 needed all the help it could get at the start. The Bajoran melodrama, the dick dastardly Dukat schemes of the week, early season clunkers and the early Dominion episodes they painted by ear, were all we had to look forward to.
People were complaining that O'Brien was in DS9?? Who are these people and how do we punish them?
Well, you and I are just using our terms a little differently. Yes, the overall Maquis arc that was created on DS9, though picked up backstory elements from TNG, was continued on TNG in "Preemptive Strike" and then throughout several DS9 episodes. The Maquis story was a DS9 story (though everyone says it was created specifically to launch Voyager) and, as many running storylines on DS9, wove through numerous episodes through numerous years.
I wouldn't say "Preemptive Strike" is a "direct sequel" since, in my mind, "direct sequels" need to pick up either the exact same specific story arc or continue the journey of specific characters. It's from the same loose storyline, but I would stop short of using your terminology.
Same with the word "crossover." In typical TV parlance, a crossover is when characters from one show are featured in another show. There are countless examples across TV history of characters "visiting" other shows. Without that defining element, I don't consider the Maquis story threads to be true crossovers. (And, no Nechayev doesn't count.)
I never heard that they were treatened with cancelation, where did you get that information?
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