The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?
- Thread starter crookeddy
- Start date
Yeah, no evidence of that.
it's logic man.. he's trying to promote KO and he's talking about how he did TLJ, the spots mention that he did TLJ, but Sisney is thinking "we are about to drop a trailer for TROS.. we don't want people to associate the two"
I wish I had your powers to read Disney's mind...
Whatever, at this point. As I said, it's a zero-sum game. I'm happy either way.
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how on gods flat earth does this make any sense at all
They brought back JJ to bring back SW and unite the fanbase.. Rian divided it, they don't want him associate with SW as they market the last film
That's why they brought Lucas back too. I mean, Lucas never divided the fan base...oh, wait.
Yeah, the logic isn't holding up.
Yeah, the logic isn't holding up.
Why not? A LOT of people liked TLJ, no matter how much youtude tells you otherwise.
edited to add. @Dry Bones 37 I thought we were supposed to be hating Abrams for basically remaking Star Wars with TFA.
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I mean, I thought so too. But, apparently he is now the savior of Star Wars.
Just like Lucas was terrible for making the PT and giving us Jar-Jar but now we want him back because only he understands SW...or something.
It's very confusing.
I think its fairly telling that every major Star Wars film release under Disney has had some considerable public production issues behind them except for one: The Last Jedi. Now I'm not going to say for a second I know why that is the case and I don't think anyone here can either. But I can gather its because both Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger were happy with the film throughout the production. The Force Awakens had a change of writer and a release date push because the original writer said he needed 18 more months to write and because of a change of direction. Rogue One is rumored to have significant reshoots that reshaped the entire film. Solo's issues are very well-publicized. The Rise of Skywalker was also pushed back from May to December because of a change of direction. But even if Mark Hamill didn't like the direction they took Luke Skywalker, the higher ups were pleased with what Rian Johnson gave them. That probably moved them to offer a future project to Johnson.
Its obvious that there are issues at Lucasfilm. I can't deny that for a second. It seems as if they really haven't known the direction they've wanted to go. But at the same time, I respect the decisions to give chances to directors like Gareth Edwards, Lord & Miller, Rian Johnson, Josh Trank and Colin Trevvorow. Even if the majority of the productions didn't go the way LFL wanted. Regardless, during the Disney era, Star Wars has made $4.85 billion at the box office. I think we'll get more information at the end of the year following the release of The Rise of Skywalker how much they're really hurting. I'm going to venture a guess that it won't be much of an issue for them. And I do believe that with the addition of Disney+ allowing for more side stories like The Mandalorian, like Obi-Wan, like the Cassian series, there is the possibility to have the tales that fans want on a smaller screen with fewer limitations and a smaller risk for Disney as a whole. That will see fewer box office failures like Solo and more box office successes like Rogue One or The Last Jedi. The Force Awakens? Yeah, I'm not going to say that that box office success isn't repeatable with Star Wars, but its not likely to happen again any time soon.
No, box office does not equal quality. And quality is subjective. But at the end of the day, as I have said repeatedly: Disney has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. It honestly has no responsibility to give the die hard Star Wars fans exactly what it is they want. They have to cater to the larger audience. They have to get butts in the seat. And honestly, what Average Joe and Dale Starwarsfan want out of a Star Wars film might not be exactly the same. At the moment, that is spectacle. And if you look at Disney's 2019 slate, you see a lot of that. Without the box office receipts for The Rise of Skywalker, 2019 is already an amazing year for Disney. With Aladdin ($355.5 million domestic), Captain Marvel ($426.8 million domestic), Toy Story 4 ($433.3 million domestic), The Lion King ($541.3 million domestic) and Avengers: Endgame ($858.4 million domestic), as well as the forthcoming Maleficent: Mistress of Evil and Frozen 2, Disney is going to be pushing $3.5 billion domestic gross. You add worldwide onto that? This is going to be a huge year for Disney. Which means one thing: There will be more of the same going forward. More live action Disney adaptations. More Marvel. More Pixar. And likely more Star Wars in some form or another. This again, is why the growth of TV and streaming as a storytelling venture is huge for entertainment. It allows for smaller stories to be told when the rising prices of movie tickets is causing event films to be the big makers at the box office.
No, this direction is not going to be for everyone. No one has to like Disney Star Wars or the idea of spectacle being what is driving cinema. But what I don't understand and what I've never understood is why people root so hard for this stuff to fail? Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy made a choice to kill off Luke Skywalker. It was a divisive choice, no question. That's where my commentary on this just being a movie comes into play. Discussing the merits of an artistic decision is one thing. That makes sense to me and I am more than happy to engage in if (even if I feel like we've done it about a fifty times in the past two years). Dissecting each thing someone says in order to prove that a movie isn't going to happen because you don't like the decisions made? Why? Why do that? First, what does it matter in the grand scheme of things? Second, even if Rian Johnson's trilogy doesn't happen, its not going to affect the overall direction that Star Wars is moving. So, those who don't like it probably will continue to not like it.
As I've suggested numerous times: I don't think Johnson's trilogy is going to happen. There are context clues out there to suggest it won't. At the moment, outside of The Rise of Skywalker, we have seven potential Star Wars films in development (Johnson's trilogy, the Benioff-Weiss trilogy and the Kevin Feige-produced movie). In the next seven years, there are three three slots in Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm/Pixar/Fox's very busy schedule for Star Wars movies. Now, sure, that number might increase, but I don't find that likely. Not with the public statements of doing too much with Star Wars too soon. Honestly, the likelihood that all of them will be made is slim. But Johnson is candid with his career. He didn't have to address all of those who didn't agree with his decisions in The Last Jedi. But he did. And for the most part, he was polite. But, until I hear otherwise, I have no reason to believe he's not been developing a series of movies for Star Wars and is continuing to. Right now it seems like its up in the air. But does that mean "Absolutely not. There will be no Rian Johnson Star Wars series?"
Or does it mean something else?
I'm going to throw a theory out there... I honestly would not be surprised if Johnson's quote about LFL figuring things out was more in line with the idea of moving his idea to Disney+. Whether that is as a straight to D+ movie or a limited series, I don't know. And it might not happen at all. But, Johnson has a history with TV production on Breaking Bad. He is liked at LFL even if some fans don't like him. The streaming option is honestly a safer opportunity for LFL (much like with the anthology films making their way to TV) and an opportunity for him to not be limited by the factors in filmmaking.
Or the story Rian Johonson wants to tell might not be told at all! And at the end of the day, while I may be disappointed, its not really going to affect my life. I will continue to watch Star Wars as long as I enjoy it until I lose interest.
Its obvious that there are issues at Lucasfilm. I can't deny that for a second. It seems as if they really haven't known the direction they've wanted to go. But at the same time, I respect the decisions to give chances to directors like Gareth Edwards, Lord & Miller, Rian Johnson, Josh Trank and Colin Trevvorow. Even if the majority of the productions didn't go the way LFL wanted. Regardless, during the Disney era, Star Wars has made $4.85 billion at the box office. I think we'll get more information at the end of the year following the release of The Rise of Skywalker how much they're really hurting. I'm going to venture a guess that it won't be much of an issue for them. And I do believe that with the addition of Disney+ allowing for more side stories like The Mandalorian, like Obi-Wan, like the Cassian series, there is the possibility to have the tales that fans want on a smaller screen with fewer limitations and a smaller risk for Disney as a whole. That will see fewer box office failures like Solo and more box office successes like Rogue One or The Last Jedi. The Force Awakens? Yeah, I'm not going to say that that box office success isn't repeatable with Star Wars, but its not likely to happen again any time soon.
No, box office does not equal quality. And quality is subjective. But at the end of the day, as I have said repeatedly: Disney has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. It honestly has no responsibility to give the die hard Star Wars fans exactly what it is they want. They have to cater to the larger audience. They have to get butts in the seat. And honestly, what Average Joe and Dale Starwarsfan want out of a Star Wars film might not be exactly the same. At the moment, that is spectacle. And if you look at Disney's 2019 slate, you see a lot of that. Without the box office receipts for The Rise of Skywalker, 2019 is already an amazing year for Disney. With Aladdin ($355.5 million domestic), Captain Marvel ($426.8 million domestic), Toy Story 4 ($433.3 million domestic), The Lion King ($541.3 million domestic) and Avengers: Endgame ($858.4 million domestic), as well as the forthcoming Maleficent: Mistress of Evil and Frozen 2, Disney is going to be pushing $3.5 billion domestic gross. You add worldwide onto that? This is going to be a huge year for Disney. Which means one thing: There will be more of the same going forward. More live action Disney adaptations. More Marvel. More Pixar. And likely more Star Wars in some form or another. This again, is why the growth of TV and streaming as a storytelling venture is huge for entertainment. It allows for smaller stories to be told when the rising prices of movie tickets is causing event films to be the big makers at the box office.
No, this direction is not going to be for everyone. No one has to like Disney Star Wars or the idea of spectacle being what is driving cinema. But what I don't understand and what I've never understood is why people root so hard for this stuff to fail? Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy made a choice to kill off Luke Skywalker. It was a divisive choice, no question. That's where my commentary on this just being a movie comes into play. Discussing the merits of an artistic decision is one thing. That makes sense to me and I am more than happy to engage in if (even if I feel like we've done it about a fifty times in the past two years). Dissecting each thing someone says in order to prove that a movie isn't going to happen because you don't like the decisions made? Why? Why do that? First, what does it matter in the grand scheme of things? Second, even if Rian Johnson's trilogy doesn't happen, its not going to affect the overall direction that Star Wars is moving. So, those who don't like it probably will continue to not like it.
As I've suggested numerous times: I don't think Johnson's trilogy is going to happen. There are context clues out there to suggest it won't. At the moment, outside of The Rise of Skywalker, we have seven potential Star Wars films in development (Johnson's trilogy, the Benioff-Weiss trilogy and the Kevin Feige-produced movie). In the next seven years, there are three three slots in Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm/Pixar/Fox's very busy schedule for Star Wars movies. Now, sure, that number might increase, but I don't find that likely. Not with the public statements of doing too much with Star Wars too soon. Honestly, the likelihood that all of them will be made is slim. But Johnson is candid with his career. He didn't have to address all of those who didn't agree with his decisions in The Last Jedi. But he did. And for the most part, he was polite. But, until I hear otherwise, I have no reason to believe he's not been developing a series of movies for Star Wars and is continuing to. Right now it seems like its up in the air. But does that mean "Absolutely not. There will be no Rian Johnson Star Wars series?"
Or does it mean something else?
I'm going to throw a theory out there... I honestly would not be surprised if Johnson's quote about LFL figuring things out was more in line with the idea of moving his idea to Disney+. Whether that is as a straight to D+ movie or a limited series, I don't know. And it might not happen at all. But, Johnson has a history with TV production on Breaking Bad. He is liked at LFL even if some fans don't like him. The streaming option is honestly a safer opportunity for LFL (much like with the anthology films making their way to TV) and an opportunity for him to not be limited by the factors in filmmaking.
Or the story Rian Johonson wants to tell might not be told at all! And at the end of the day, while I may be disappointed, its not really going to affect my life. I will continue to watch Star Wars as long as I enjoy it until I lose interest.
Here are my thoughts, not that they are worth a whole heck of a lot, since I don't work for Disney nor do I know Johnson personally. Disney and LFL have several irons in the fire that are taking time and resources to develop. While Disney is not pulling away from SW, there is certainly an adjusted level of cautiousness as explicated by Iger.
And so, things get played much tighter to the vest. With so many projects, and the focus on The Rise of Skywalker, and the Mandalorian, I doubt we'll get much more news about future projects.
And again, I'll reiterate, why does Johnson making or not making his trilogy matter? There are so many reasons why and many of them the audience won't be privy to. Does this trilogy really impact our lives that much?
What are you arguing about? We are on a message board discussing Star Wars movies. In that context a new trilogy being made or not being made is pretty much one of the biggest issues to discuss. It doesn't mean it's fundamentally important, but it's important in the context of the place you are posting.
How is it a big issue, mich less the biggest? We have three new releases upcoming so why focus on the one that we don't know anything about?
No, they brought him back because Disney lost faith in Colin Trevorrow’s ability to deliver.
And they offered it to Rian first. He turned it down because he didn't want to do two SW movies back to back. Also, JJ was brought back before TLJ even came out.
Not even close. As much as I didn't care for TLJ, I'd still easily take it over TPM and AOTC. Those movies bored me to tears. ROTS is the only one I ever bother rewatching and of course I love TFA. Rise of Skywalker would really have to tank for me to even consider putting the trilogy in that bad company.
Yep. The decision was made long before TLJ hit theaters.
I agree, but I do see the argument that the prequel trilogy took more risks.
Not that it matters, but I'll try to clarify what I've said in this thread regarding "forced diversity".
No one here will probably like it, but whatever.
Recently I saw someone mention on a video that when Lucas made the first SW film, he targeted twelve year old boys. Whether this is true or not depends on some research. For the sake of discussion let's assume that this is the case. Never mind for a second that the film became much bigger than anyone could have imagined, When he made the film he specifically (in the scenario here) made it for 12 year old male audience members. That was his target. It has all the things they like, a great hero, a more edgy character.. a Damsel in distress, which boys also like.. but they also like when that damsel is actually more than capable.. great imaginative worlds that they can deepen in their own imaginations, and just something different all around, yet rooted in familiar fantasies. blah blah blah. It turns out that they might have been its target, but lucas.. and his team.. just made a damn good movie, speaking to people on level that they didn't know they needed Thought (inn this scenario) targeted to these kids, it actually appealed to general audiences overall. And people from various demographics enjoyed it and some became die hard fans.. even though targeted at boys, girls and women liked it even though it wasn't targeted at them, it was still a sound story well told, and those members of the female gender didn't mind that the film wasn't aimed for them (it wasn't aimed against them either) because we are all human and stories affect boys and girls.. sometimes the same way, and they wind up becoming huge fans. They became fans of Star wars without the film going out of its way to target them. and latched onto the same things about it that the guys latched onto.
So, controversial as it might sound, and unless you do it carefully, changing your target audience can do more harm than good. Sure it can work.. maybe.. and you can bring in more people.. but if it doesn't.. if a SW film was "targeted" to girls, then there is a chance that if the girls who never liked SW before might still not like it as it just does not appeal to them. While the girls and women that already like it and are huge fans thought there was nothing wrong and they would still be on board and don't need to be pandered to, and the boys that make up the original target might see this change as just a way to make it even more commercial than it is.. or, even more simply, it might be for them anymore because the target is different. So my point is that diversity itself isn't a problem.. include people from whatever race and gender and lifestyle you want.. but make it part of the story, don't pull us out of a story with obvious virtue signalling, just remember that the core of SW was that it was just a story, whoever it was targeted to originally that was fine.. because if the story works others beyond that target will watch it without the need to force others into a story.
It would take a whole nother post to articulate how this can be done, or what that line might be that they can cross where someone could see that the target has changed.. (simply having a female character in something isn't of itself changing the target, but maybe having her know more and be better than all the males around her does.. perhaps)
No one here will probably like it, but whatever.
Recently I saw someone mention on a video that when Lucas made the first SW film, he targeted twelve year old boys. Whether this is true or not depends on some research. For the sake of discussion let's assume that this is the case. Never mind for a second that the film became much bigger than anyone could have imagined, When he made the film he specifically (in the scenario here) made it for 12 year old male audience members. That was his target. It has all the things they like, a great hero, a more edgy character.. a Damsel in distress, which boys also like.. but they also like when that damsel is actually more than capable.. great imaginative worlds that they can deepen in their own imaginations, and just something different all around, yet rooted in familiar fantasies. blah blah blah. It turns out that they might have been its target, but lucas.. and his team.. just made a damn good movie, speaking to people on level that they didn't know they needed Thought (inn this scenario) targeted to these kids, it actually appealed to general audiences overall. And people from various demographics enjoyed it and some became die hard fans.. even though targeted at boys, girls and women liked it even though it wasn't targeted at them, it was still a sound story well told, and those members of the female gender didn't mind that the film wasn't aimed for them (it wasn't aimed against them either) because we are all human and stories affect boys and girls.. sometimes the same way, and they wind up becoming huge fans. They became fans of Star wars without the film going out of its way to target them. and latched onto the same things about it that the guys latched onto.
So, controversial as it might sound, and unless you do it carefully, changing your target audience can do more harm than good. Sure it can work.. maybe.. and you can bring in more people.. but if it doesn't.. if a SW film was "targeted" to girls, then there is a chance that if the girls who never liked SW before might still not like it as it just does not appeal to them. While the girls and women that already like it and are huge fans thought there was nothing wrong and they would still be on board and don't need to be pandered to, and the boys that make up the original target might see this change as just a way to make it even more commercial than it is.. or, even more simply, it might be for them anymore because the target is different. So my point is that diversity itself isn't a problem.. include people from whatever race and gender and lifestyle you want.. but make it part of the story, don't pull us out of a story with obvious virtue signalling, just remember that the core of SW was that it was just a story, whoever it was targeted to originally that was fine.. because if the story works others beyond that target will watch it without the need to force others into a story.
It would take a whole nother post to articulate how this can be done, or what that line might be that they can cross where someone could see that the target has changed.. (simply having a female character in something isn't of itself changing the target, but maybe having her know more and be better than all the males around her does.. perhaps)