Where was the Enterprise during the Dominion War?

[Crewman6]

Almost everything in this post is wrong.

One actually wonders whether Picard in fact did have a choice. Stopping to fight Starfleet makes no sense for the Borg: they could just fly right past or through the silly blockade, and concentrate on having the fight at their destination, Earth. But Picard as Locutus may have had influence within the Collective, and lured them into thinking that fighting and assimilating the fleet at Wolf 359 would be a good idea - when in fact it was but a ruse to buy time for the heroes to discover an antidote to the Borg. Likewise, stopping again and again to sightsee various attractions in the Sol system could be a Locutus move, costing thousands of lives but ultimately saving billions.

There's nothing to suggest the Borg "stopped" or "went out of their way" to engage the fleet. The fleet was literally between the Cube and Earth. They had more than enough firepower to force the Cube out of warp and force it to engage, or they could have all just attacked it while it was at warp. Nothing to suggest that the attack on the fleet was "unnecessary", it was literally in their way, directly attacking it all the while. It wasn't just sitting there.

The contribution of Picard to the destruction of the fleet is otherwise likely to be negligible. The ships supposedly didn't die because Picard revealed their secret passwords to the Collective, but simply because they were inferior to begin with and incapable of resisting a Borg Cube.

Um, no. The show makes it extremely clear that Picard's knowledge of Starfleet tactics and procedures was extremely important in the Borg so easily defeating the fleet. This is made clear in BOBW and "Family" and elsewhere. It's also the reason why the Enterprise was able to at least briefly confuse and get the drop on Locutus - because they specifically went against what Locutus was expecting.

In-universe, Picard only ever meets Sisko because he thinks the depressed Commander needs a kick in his lower anatomy before he can be trusted with doing the right thing at Bajor. Does he not realize Sisko is a Wolf 359 survivor? His degree of being taken aback doesn't readily tell - but it would be odd for him to have failed to learn this when he decided Sisko was in need of this talk. Surely he came to that conclusion through reading Sisko's file? (Indeed, Sisko's depression and his history with the Borg would probably be directly linked in that file.)

You're making this up out of nothing. Picard knows zero about Sisko's mental state, he's there to give Sisko a briefing about the Bajorans and the context of Sisko's mission. That's it. Picard isn't there to "kick" Sisko in the butt. Picard's attitude (prior to Sisko's outburst) is warm and congenial. Besides, if Picard actually was aware of any depression on Sisko's part due to Jennifer's death, Picard isn't the kind of person who would think a "butt kicking" would be the appropriate response.

Terrible theorizing all around.

 

[Timo]

Almost everything in this post is wrong.

Then why make it?

There's nothing to suggest the Borg "stopped" or "went out of their way" to engage the fleet. The fleet was literally between the Cube and Earth.

Utter nonsense. This is literally astronomically improbable (aka utterly impossible). There is no "between" in interstellar terms, not even if the fleet somehow spread itself to cover hundreds of thousands of kilometers (which it did not, as we clearly saw).

Flying around or through the fleet would be absolutely trivial. Whether the fleet somehow would get into a firing position nevertheless depends on the properties of the weapons used and the Cube targeted - but "forcing the Cube out of warp" is unfounded speculation, and certainly demonstrated to be impossible in ST:FC at Typhon.

Nothing to suggest that the attack on the fleet was "unnecessary", it was literally in their way, directly attacking it all the while. It wasn't just sitting there.

Naah, we saw it just sitting there. And the Borg stopping to make threats before the first shot was fired. Some may disagree on whether that was wise (and this is something you and me share, even if from opposite angles). None should pretend it did not happen.

The show makes it extremely clear that Picard's knowledge of Starfleet tactics and procedures was extremely important in the Borg so easily defeating the fleet. This is made clear in BOBW and "Family" and elsewhere. It's also the reason why the Enterprise was able to at least briefly confuse and get the drop on Locutus - because they specifically went against what Locutus was expecting.

Nothing is ever stated "clearly" or otherwise on that. The influence of Locutus on what the Cube did is unknown - might be he helped, might be he hindered. He admits to neither, merely to helplessly being there.

You're making this up out of nothing.

Well, so are you. Assigning motivations to an entity that only ever says "Resistance is futile" is speculative at its very best.

Picard knows zero about Sisko's mental state, he's there to give Sisko a briefing about the Bajorans and the context of Sisko's mission. That's it. Picard isn't there to "kick" Sisko in the butt. Picard's attitude (prior to Sisko's outburst) is warm and congenial.

Which it would be if his intent was to kick his butt, warmly and congenially so that the loser can get a grip and recognize his real duty at this assignment he clearly hasn't quite fathomed yet.

Picard makes it quite clear that he knows Sisko's background: he has read the file, quotes his past career, mentions his trying to wriggle out of the assignment. His one concern here is that Sisko might not be the right stuff, so next he outright says he is thinking of getting Sisko fired, to which the defeated wreck of an officer just nods. In the end, the reverse psychology works and no replacement for Sisko is needed, but this was a very real concern before, during and for some time after that Observation Lounge meeting.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Prax]

Nothing is ever stated "clearly" or otherwise on that. The influence of Locutus on what the Cube did is unknown - might be he helped, might be he hindered. He admits to neither, merely to helplessly being there.

Well, on this point-
PICARD [on viewscreen]: The knowledge and experience of the human Picard is part of us now. It has prepared us for all possible courses of action. Your resistance is hopeless, Number One.

And

SHELBY: You realise, Admiral, that with the assistance of Captain Picard, the Borg will be prepared for your defences.

Riker: Mister Worf. We're no longer just fighting the Borg, we're fighting the life experience they've stolen from Captain Picard. Now how the hell do we defeat an enemy that knows us better than we know ourselves?

RIKER: It's not that simple. This was his crew. He wrote the book on this ship.
GUINAN: And the Borg know everything he knows. It's time to throw that book away. You must let him go, Riker. It's the only way to beat him. The only way to save him. And that is now you chair. Captain.

SHELBY: Sir. I must remind you that Captain Picard was briefed on that plan. The Borg will be prepared for it

RIKER: We don't have more time, Doctor. Once he was wired into the Borg, they knew everything that he knew. I just hope it goes both ways. If we're lucky, he had access to everything we need to know about them, especially their vulnerabilities.

PICARD: They used me to kill and to destroy

For something never stated clearly, it sure seems like they stated it every other way possible. It's almost as though they won't shut up about it.

 

[Qonundrum]

Farting about on Ba'ku

^^this

Glaring inconsistencies, contrivances, and continuity gaffes aside, 1701-E sorta needed to be in the dominion war's biggest skirmish.

Then again, there's that pesky flip-side issue as well: They scripted in the "Night Court" crew* to run the Defiant in "First Contact" where, as always, the Borg don't adapt on cue since it's always just one cube that easily gets defeated... never mind what would amount to quantum hoo-haas and other new and advanced weapons were already on the drawing board at the time of Picard being abducted, six years earlier. The Borg used to adapt and anticipate. VOY wasn't needed to water them down, FC already did it and VOY elevated them back for a while but I digress: I can fathom a Cube being partially damaged and quickly adapt, but not destroyed so readily** and I doubt the Borg were relying on that old TV trope of "it was made to look easy", since nobody on the Enterprise second-guessed how easy it was...

Granted, Roz would nag them to death in a completely unexpected (but entertaining) way... and I'd give real money to have watched that, especially after Dan would chat one up only to be taken, only in a way he wasn't expecting... hmmm, that's also a crossover series I'd love to see made...

* think "antivirus heuristic scanning algorithms to detect and prepare for possibly unknowns that match certain signatures or patterns, which - for antimalware - wasn't very new in 1996 (the term would be coined almost a decade later) but at least the episode "Contagion" from season 2 capitalized on the then-new concept (for personal computers that (some of the masses) still couldn't figure out how to use, anyway) of viruses and restoring from that backup partition copy they made a week ago. But the plot had to bypass the Borg's advanced abilities to be set up and there are plenty of reasons that it hasn't aged well, though in 1996 I still preferred "Generations" as it - despite being rushed - was still trying to be big and bold in the way Q was describing, rather than a throwaway action flick.

 

[Crewman6]

Then why make it?

Points.


As for the rest, everything here is so utterly wrong, but I'm just going to pick one thing to focus on, because refuting every single point of yours is frankly too boring and time consuming --

Nothing is ever stated "clearly" or otherwise on that. The influence of Locutus on what the Cube did is unknown - might be he helped, might be he hindered. He admits to neither, merely to helplessly being there.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.





Locotus: The knowledge and experience of
the human Picard is part of...
us... now. It has prepared us...
for all possible courses of
action. Your resistance is
hopeless...
(beat)
... Number One.

Riker: We're not just fighting the Borg
anymore... we're fighting the life
experience they've stolen from
Captain Picard...

Shelby: You realize, Admiral, that with
the assistance of Picard, the Borg
will be prepared for our
defenses...

Guinan: And the Borg know everything he
knows...

Admiral Satie: It must have been awful...
actually becoming one of them...
being forced to use your vast
knowledge of Starfleet operations
to aid the Borg...


And, finally, even if you reject ALL of that, which would obviously fly against the repeated intentions of the show's writer/producers, let's hear it from the man himself....

Picard: You don't know, Robert. You don't
know. They took everything I was.
They used me to kill...
And I could not stop them. I
should have been able to stop
them.


This is a pattern I've noticed with you. Not only do you frequently get the facts flatly wrong, but you weave absurd theories which, while not often directly, specifically contradicted, obviously fly directly in the face of the very obvious and clear intentions of the show.

It's like saying, "Well, I believe Wesley Crusher was a changeling because we never saw him and Odo in the same room at the same time."

While that's technically correct, it's a completely absurd and unfounded leap that is so obviously not the real intent of the show.

So, please keep spinning your zany theories, but don't expect anyone to take 'em seriously.

 

[Crewman6]

Well, on this point-
PICARD [on viewscreen]: The knowledge and experience of the human Picard is part of us now. It has prepared us for all possible courses of action. Your resistance is hopeless, Number One.

And

SHELBY: You realise, Admiral, that with the assistance of Captain Picard, the Borg will be prepared for your defences.

Riker: Mister Worf. We're no longer just fighting the Borg, we're fighting the life experience they've stolen from Captain Picard. Now how the hell do we defeat an enemy that knows us better than we know ourselves?

RIKER: It's not that simple. This was his crew. He wrote the book on this ship.
GUINAN: And the Borg know everything he knows. It's time to throw that book away. You must let him go, Riker. It's the only way to beat him. The only way to save him. And that is now you chair. Captain.

SHELBY: Sir. I must remind you that Captain Picard was briefed on that plan. The Borg will be prepared for it

RIKER: We don't have more time, Doctor. Once he was wired into the Borg, they knew everything that he knew. I just hope it goes both ways. If we're lucky, he had access to everything we need to know about them, especially their vulnerabilities.

PICARD: They used me to kill and to destroy

For something never stated clearly, it sure seems like they stated it every other way possible. It's almost as though they won't shut up about it.

Haha. Didn't realize you beat me to the punch with this post. I basically repeated what you'd already said.

Spot on! To paraphrase another great space-faring hero, "I don't know where he gets his delusions."

 

[Timo]

Uuhh... I concede defeat.

Although of course that's just the heroes' view, possibly as biased as Hanson's "Picard will never betray us" one. And it certainly doesn't take Picard's expertise to defeat Starfleet: no starship ever stood a chance, at least not after Picard stopped firing after the third hit in "Q Who?" and allowed the Borg to adapt for all future fights... Indeed, as the story unfolds, the only explicit contribution from Picard's expertise is the bit where it blindsides the Borg to the Saucer Trick!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

Even more baffling is Ira's unbelievably off base "prediction" about what the next year of DS9 was going to look like. Seriously, he thought the war would just settle into a boring "stalemate"? That makes absolutely no sense. Thankfully, it's not what the show actually became, but sheesh...

Although the war wasn't winding down as such, it had reached a stalemate by the middle of season 7. The initial gains resulting from the Romulan entry to the war had slowed, and we know the offensive seen in Tears of the Prophets had ground to a halt by Image in the Sand. The allies and the Dominion were slugging it out over rocks like AR-558, and the Klingons were trying their 'cavalry raids' to break the stalemate.

It's only with the Breen entry that things heat up again.

Personally I think Ira was just trying to put Piller off using any DS9 elements in the film, given how pissed off he was with the cavalier use of the Defiant in First Contact.

 

[Prax]

Piller had nothing to do with First Contact, though, which was co-written by a DS9 writer. I've heard another story that Behr was asked by Piller to look at the script for Insurrection and offer advice, and that he absolutely trashed it. Piller and Behr were supposed to be good friends, so I dunno. I also heard a story that Behr was invited by Berman and Braga to the set of Enterprise during season 2 when they were looking for a new showrunner to take over, and that he trashed that show and(obviously) declined. I don't know which story is true(or both), but it would be really petty to be bitter over First Contact enough to sabatoge free PR for his own show.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

The lack of synergy between the creatives on the TNG (late seasons and movies) DS9 and VOY; by the writing and production team (many of which had worked on all 3 properties at one time or another) is baffling to me. It's like all of them were competing against one another.

What's up with that? Who can work in an environment like that?

 

[Prax]

I would say it's just the opposite. All three shows had crossover appearances, not to mention lots of references. The TNG crew visit DS9 twice and mention it several times. Voyager visit DS9, and mentions it a bunch of times. Riker appears on both shows, as does Q. Geordi appears on Voyager. Barclay appears on Voyager 6 times(!), and has whole episodes about him. Troi appears as well. Dr. Zimmerman appears on DS9. On DS9, the Maquis are wiped out, and it's referenced on Voyager several times, as is the Dominion war.

In the movies, the Borg invasion from First Contact is mentioned on DS9 and several times on Voyager. The uniforms created for First Contact were used on DS9 and Voyager. First Contact also mentions DS9 a few times. Ships besides the Enterprise E made for FC show up on DS9. And that had to be recreated for the show by DS9's own effects house. Also, Insurrection mentions the Dominion war several times.

If the Dominion war is as vast a conflict as it's made out to be, and the Enterprise is the only ship of its kind, them it is not all that surprising that we don't see it.

I'm sure there is a lot more, but these immediately come to mind. All 3 shows not only shared many writers, and every director, but all shared a showrunner(Piller), and were all produced by the same Executive Producer(Berman).

 

[Tomalak]

There's also the deleted Quark scene in Insurrection.

 

[Farscape One]

The thing we have to remember about Deep Space 9 during the war was that once Starfleet retook the station, and the 2,000+ Dominion ships that were about to come through were stopped by the Prophets, DS9 was no longer a priority to the the Dominion. So they would not be in the front lines of action all the time. This is part of the reason why it may sometimes seem like the war was a background thing in dialogue.

And I think this was a good decision, because it allowed the balance of fun stories and dramatic war stories. It might have gotten too depressing otherwise.

The same can be said of the Enterprise-E... although in an ironic way, DISCOVERY sort of retroactively explains that ship's absence. It was explained to Pike that he and the Enterprise was kept out of the Klingon War because if the Federation fell, they wanted the very best and brightest out of harm's way to maybe rebuild elsewhere. I think Picard and his crew fall under that category, as well.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

The thing we have to remember about Deep Space 9 during the war was that once Starfleet retook the station, and the 2,000+ Dominion ships that were about to come through were stopped by the Prophets, DS9 was no longer a priority to the the Dominion. So they would not be in the front lines of action all the time. This is part of the reason why it may sometimes seem like the war was a background thing in dialogue.

And I think this was a good decision, because it allowed the balance of fun stories and dramatic war stories. It might have gotten too depressing otherwise.

The same can be said of the Enterprise-E... although in an ironic way, DISCOVERY sort of retroactively explains that ship's absence. It was explained to Pike that he and the Enterprise was kept out of the Klingon War because if the Federation fell, they wanted the very best and brightest out of harm's way to maybe rebuild elsewhere. I think Picard and his crew fall under that category, as well.

The Enterprise is always front line with these engagements though.

Archer's ENT during the Xindi and Romulan wars.

Kirk's ENT during the Klingon territory disputes in TOS and the prelude to war in TUC.

Picard's ENT during Borg invasions of Earth (BOBW and FC), the Cardassian border disputes, and the Romulan coups in (Unification and NEM)

The Kelvin ENT was present to assist Vulcan and Earth against Nero.

Just looking at the ENT-E's performance in FC-NEM There's no way the ship gets benched during the war.

Go to 10:07 for ENT-E.

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The Sovereign and Prometheus Classes were bigger, scarier Defiant Class. Definitely something you want out their fighting. Instead of century's old Miranda and Excelsior classes. Which were in most DS9 battle in abundance.

 

[Prax]

The Ent E was definitely benched in FC

 

[M.A.C.O.]

The Ent E was definitely benched in FC

Fair enough. ENT-E turned the tide when introduced. The Starfleet Admiralty. A collection of officers who fail upwards and still remain and powers.

 

[Farscape One]

Archer's Enterprise was THE fastest ship in Starfleet, and time was a big factor. Add that to the fact that crew traveled further than any and likely went through more than any otger crew. They were the obvious choice to go.

With Kirk, his ship did encounter Klingons multiple times, but we don't know if others in the fleet did it more. With THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY, Spock volunteered Kirk and the Enterprise. Since he was at the forefront of the negotiations, he had his pick of any ship in the fleet.

With Picard, it seened they were not the ones who dealt with Cardassians as much as others, which is part of the reason why Jellico was goven command of her during those talks. With the first Borg incident, the Borg purposefully went for Picard. The second time, they defied orders and went to fight the Borg... obviously, a good call. With the Romulan situations, Picard was on Romulus while Riker investigated the missing Vulcan ship and the investigation happened to lead them to the coming Romulans. And with NEMESIS, I think Shinzon asked specifically for the Enterprise.

With Nero, Starfleet was mobilizing EVERYONE nearby.

The Dominion War wasn't on during FIRST CONTACT, plus she was damaged and Borgified. It would have to be in drydock for a while.

I'm not saying the lineage of the Enterprise is not a great one. It very much is the best of Starfleet and the Federation. I'm just giving reasons for those examples.

Regarding the older ships... during wartime, I think numbers were a big factor in engagements. It's likely faster and more efficient to buuld huge amounts of Excelsior and Miranda class ships... probably for every Sovereign or Prometheus that is built, Starfleet can make a dozen of the older ones. Likely faster, too.

Numbers are particularly important against a foe like the Jem'Hadar, who breed and build ships at an alarmingly fast rate.

 

[Timo]

The Enterprise is always front line with these engagements though.

Not by Starfleet's choice, though.

Archer's ENT during the Xindi and Romulan wars.

The former, yes. The latter, we have no idea. Might have been turned into a museum by that point.

Kirk's ENT during the Klingon territory disputes in TOS and the prelude to war in TUC.

Quite the opposite - Kirk is sent to the irrelevant Organia when the big fights happen elsewhere, and his puny ship turns tail at the first sight of the enemy anyway. And in TUC, Starfleet does its damnedest to keep Kirk's ship away from any real action, including sending Klingon allies to shoot her down.

Picard's ENT during Borg invasions of Earth (BOBW and FC)

She was actually elsewhere during both invasions, and only made an appearance against strict orders in the latter case.

the Cardassian border disputes, and the Romulan coups in (Unification and NEM)

Well, she was being targeted there; it wasn't Starfleet's choice to send her.

The Kelvin ENT was present to assist Vulcan and Earth against Nero.

Again despite Starfleet intent, not thanks to it - and indeed due to the villain's own misguided manipulations.

Just looking at the ENT-E's performance in FC-NEM There's no way the ship gets benched during the war.

That I guess is the point. Starfleet always benches the Enterprise. It is up to the heroes to decide whether to settle for that or not. Perhaps during the Dominion War, they for a uniquely rare once actually followed their fighting orders?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crewman6]

I would say it's just the opposite. All three shows had crossover appearances, not to mention lots of references. The TNG crew visit DS9 twice and mention it several times. Voyager visit DS9, and mentions it a bunch of times. Riker appears on both shows, as does Q. Geordi appears on Voyager. Barclay appears on Voyager 6 times(!), and has whole episodes about him. Troi appears as well. Dr. Zimmerman appears on DS9. On DS9, the Maquis are wiped out, and it's referenced on Voyager several times, as is the Dominion war.

In the movies, the Borg invasion from First Contact is mentioned on DS9 and several times on Voyager. The uniforms created for First Contact were used on DS9 and Voyager. First Contact also mentions DS9 a few times. Ships besides the Enterprise E made for FC show up on DS9. And that had to be recreated for the show by DS9's own effects house. Also, Insurrection mentions the Dominion war several times.

If the Dominion war is as vast a conflict as it's made out to be, and the Enterprise is the only ship of its kind, them it is not all that surprising that we don't see it.

I'm sure there is a lot more, but these immediately come to mind. All 3 shows not only shared many writers, and every director, but all shared a showrunner(Piller), and were all produced by the same Executive Producer(Berman).

All of this is true, of course, and this is a fairly comprehensive list.

But it's still comparatively small potatoes. Lots of TV shows used to do true "crossover" episodes, often times in shows that were never meant to be set in the same universe until they suddenly jammed the casts together to make big, "event" style programming.

A few references here and there don't add up to much. We got a few guest shots here and there, but even when the Enterprise visited DS9, the only familiar face we saw was Bashir's.

There were a few stories that touched all series - notably the Maquis arc, but that was basically it. A few other random cameos here and there, but nothing significant.

It really is disappointing we never saw a true crossover with both crews tackling the same large catastrophe from different perspectives during the time both TNG and DS9 were on the air.

Look at the epic crossovers that the CW shows do repeatedly - huge, universe-spanning threats that loop in characters from multiple series and are told across those same shows in multi-part events.

Missed opportunity that they never tried anything similar.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

All of this is true, of course, and this is a fairly comprehensive list.

But it's still comparatively small potatoes. Lots of TV shows used to do true "crossover" episodes, often times in shows that were never meant to be set in the same universe until they suddenly jammed the casts together to make big, "event" style programming.

A few references here and there don't add up to much. We got a few guest shots here and there, but even when the Enterprise visited DS9, the only familiar face we saw was Bashir's.

There were a few stories that touched all series - notably the Maquis arc, but that was basically it. A few other random cameos here and there, but nothing significant.

It really is disappointing we never saw a true crossover with both crews tackling the same large catastrophe from different perspectives during the time both TNG and DS9 were on the air.

Look at the epic crossovers that the CW shows do repeatedly - huge, universe-spanning threats that loop in characters from multiple series and are told across those same shows in multi-part events.

Missed opportunity that they never tried anything similar.

Agreed. Especially considering all 3 shows (TNG, DS9 and VOY) were filmed on the same studio lot. When TNG went to the movies, the Paramount lot was on the other side of the studio, I seem to recall.

I don’t know why they didn’t do more with what they had. Cross-pollinate and motivate viewers to watch the other shows. VOY had an excuse. But TNG has Quark speak to Riker for something mundane and Basir use the science labs in one episode. That was it.

In another world, I would’ve done a big boss crossover for TNG season 7 (which was a wasteland of ideas and good stories), with DS9.

I don’t know why Paramount made the ENT-E a movie exclusive ship, but i would’ve definitely included it on a battle in DS9.

Maybe TPTB just didn’t have the imagination or involve with where television was at the time.