Something I noticed about Neelix and Kes relationship.

[Riker'sMailbox]

NEELIX: It has nothing to do with trusting you. It's him I don't trust. I've seen his kind before. They're all over the quadrant, as a matter of fact. They prey on naive, sheltered young women like you.

So, the above quote and many others like it really play into why I find their relationship creepy. This is not romance, this is not cute. He automatically assumes that she is unable to handle herself, when she demonstrates quite often that she is more mature than he is.

 

[Prax]

So, the above quote and many others like it really play into why I find their relationship creepy. This is not romance, this is not cute. He automatically assumes that she is unable to handle herself, when she demonstrates quite often that she is more mature than he is.

But she is naive and innocent. Furthermore, Neelix immediately apologizes for getting upset right after this. Since this who c-plot is restricted to about two episodes, there are no "many other quotes like it."

It would be like if I said "Sisko and Kassidy's relationship is awful. He treats her like crap, like she's not even worthy to be in his presence" because of that one episode where she is on his ship.

Both the feelings of insecurity that Neelix has and the feelings of attraction that Paris has, as well as the feelings of mistrust towards Paris are totally natural, and something everyone who has ever been in a relationship has experienced.

 

[eschaton]

I think one of the major problems with the Neelix/Kes relationship was actually that the writers realized almost immediately they made a mistake, but then didn't have the guts to undo it.

I mean, Kes was a very young, innocent, beautiful woman that they decided to pair with an older, unattractive, annoying man. The relationship just didn't work, and always came across as creepy. Yet while they took until the third season to end it, they didn't include any of the normal things for relationships. You know - romance? I think you can count the number of times they kissed on camera on one hand, and they were always passionless pecks. Elogium always strongly implied - to me anyway - that Kes and Neelix had never actually had sex. As a result, it sort of came across as if Kes was somehow Neelix's platonic friend that he had a crush on - yet at the same time he was incredibly possessive of her and did everything he could to keep Tom away.

 

[Sakonna]

That's so true. The jealousy wouldn't stand out so much if there was more (anything?) positive about their relationship on screen to compete with it.

 

[HelenofBorg]

I agree that Neelix acted badly in his relation to Kes due to his jealousy and over-protection of her. he was so axious that Kes should leave him, therefore his attitude which sadly enough made her leave him.

His whole behavior was actually a result of a terrible trauma in which he lost his whole family. To cope with that horrible experience, he took on his duty to help, to cheer people up and to be as useful as possible for the Voyager crew.

He was overdoing a lot of things which gave the opposite result of what he wanted and he screwed up his relationship with Kes. But that was also a result of the trauma which affected him deeply. He was a very complex person.

If Voyager had had a counselor, that person would have had to spend a lot of time with Neelix because the poor guy really did have some "issues".

Neelix desperately tried to "fit in". Obviously he did know deep down inside that his skills were limited so he tried to compensate for that with a lot of ideas and whims, like his self-made role as "Morale Officer", how he became almost obsessed with the idea of being an "investigating journalist", the Talaxian resort he created at the holodek (which Harry and Tom totally changed) and his bragging about his skills as guide while his knowledge about the Delta Quadrant was limited. That was also one of the reasons why he and Kes started to drift apart as soon as they came on board Voyager.

Kes found a purpose for her life on the ship. A new reality, new people, the Hydroponics Bay, her work in sickbay and an ardent will to learn and explore.

Neelix on the other hand found his skills rather limited and therefore did all he could to get attention, like "look at me, see what I can accomplish. His jealousy over Kes probably had something to do about being jealous of how good Kes did adapt to the new life and become an useful member of the crew while he did find himself limited. Not to mention that his control over Kes started to vanish as soon as they joined the Voyager crew.

I also think thyt he still had bad memories about what happened to his family so in an attempt to keep those feelings away he tried to be positive, cheerful and tried to cheer up everyone on the ship, like "I want happiness around me so smile!".

Of corse he over-did almost everything he was involved in. His pestering of Tuvok was actually horrible and annoying (but fun to watch) and I can understand Tuvok's frustration over those current attacks from Neelix. But his intentions were good.

So I can't help feeling a lot of sympathy for the furry guy, despite his sometimes annoying behavior.

I agree, Neelix was a very complex character, and overall I did like him, who couldn't? He was talkative, and with him, what you saw was what you got, nothing hidden. Just today I watched the episode with Ma'bor Jetrel, and just hearing what Neelix went through because of the Metreon Cascade, I have to be honest it put a tear in my eye. In some ways it is suprising he is as functional as he is considering what he went through, seeing people dying of metreon poisoning, including a little girl. And that he could have been on Rinax at the time... it makes me wonder if he had survivors guilt when the rest of his family perished. These are the kinds of conditions that could give him PTSD, like combat veterans who have seen attrocities.

In some ways, I do wonder if his cheery persona might be to hide his pain, and his behaviour where Kes is concerned is two fronted, to protect her from harms he never wants her to see, and to always be in control because you never know what is around the corner. His behaviour towards her is not right, but it might be understandable when seen in this light.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Neelix and Kes' relationship hurt terribly for the fact that he was increasingly portrayed as a middle aged man and she as, well, like two years old if not prepubescent.

 

[eschaton]

Neelix and Kes' relationship hurt terribly for the fact that he was increasingly portrayed as a middle aged man and she as, well, like two years old if not prepubescent.

To be fair, when Voyager premiered, Ethan Phillips was 40, and Jennifer Lien was 21 - meaning he was almost twice her age.

I do wonder if this is one of those things which sounded like a good idea when they were brainstorming the character ideas, and then both of the characters just drifted in different directions after casting.

 

[Tracy Trek]

And that he could have been on Rinax at the time... it makes me wonder if he had survivors guilt when the rest of his family perished. These are the kinds of conditions that could give him PTSD, like combat veterans who have seen attrocities.

In some ways, I do wonder if his cheery persona might be to hide his pain, and his behaviour where Kes is concerned is two fronted, to protect her from harms he never wants her to see, and to always be in control because you never know what is around the corner. His behaviour towards her is not right, but it might be understandable when seen in this light.

I've always felt that a great deal of what made Neelix tick was survivor's guilt. And him holding onto Kes too tightly was a way to keep from losing what he loved again.

 

[Guy Gardener]

6 months as an enslaved Kazon waitress.

Kes may have been naive when she breached the surface, but the Kazon probably have rules about sex with children, which is how she survived that camp with her virtue in tact.

Neelix SAVED her!

 

[gakelly]

Kes was an ill conceived character to begin with. And simply making her Neelix's possession did even less to help develop her character. I think the show tried to have too many characters in the ensemble. I know some people like her, but what really did the character add to the show? She simply forced tension between Neelix and Paris. Not having her would have allowed more screen time to develop Paris or Harry more.

 

[at Quark's]

Not having her would have allowed more screen time to develop Paris or Harry more.

I think having her on board contributed more to the soul and "feel" of the early Voyager years than Harry. What did he really add in that time, except for being the token newbie who still wants to do everything by the book and missing his family and Libby?

 

[Tracy Trek]

Kes was an ill conceived character to begin with. And simply making her Neelix's possession did even less to help develop her character. I think the show tried to have too many characters in the ensemble. I know some people like her, but what really did the character add to the show? She simply forced tension between Neelix and Paris. Not having her would have allowed more screen time to develop Paris or Harry more.

What did she add to the show? I think her character wanting to experience everything in her short life and explore the universe was the epitome the Star Trek ideal.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Kes was an ill conceived character to begin with. And simply making her Neelix's possession did even less to help develop her character. I think the show tried to have too many characters in the ensemble. I know some people like her, but what really did the character add to the show? She simply forced tension between Neelix and Paris. Not having her would have allowed more screen time to develop Paris or Harry more.

I think having her on board contributed more to the soul and "feel" of the early Voyager years than Harry. What did he really add in that time, except for being the token newbie who still wants to do everything by the book and missing his family and Libby?

What did she add to the show? I think her character wanting to experience everything in her short life and explore the universe was the epitome the Star Trek ideal.

Ensembles are like... albums. Sometimes, an album will be far greater than the sum of it's parts, because the parts work and flow so well together. Sometimes the opposite is true; an album of equally good songs just doesn't work. It's an odd phenomenon. A lot of the early "Eagles" singles didn't crack the top 20, but put them all on "Their Greatest Hits" album, and for some reason it becomes the best selling album in US history, still selling to this day.

The Voyager crew is like an album where a few misplaced or underdeveloped "songs" weaken it too much.

My opinions:

Best characters:

Janeway: Best captain, since the original James T. Kirk. 'Nuff said.

Chakotay: I think the character would have worked better in a better ensemble. That is, I think Chakotay was a good character, too many of the other characters weren't. He did well as the main character in several stories, and he was an important supporting character.

The Doctor: Standout character, capable of carrying complex story lines, as well as an important supporting character.

Seven: Another standout character that carried many complex story lines, as well as an important supporting character.

Tuvok: Tim Russ knocked Spock off the throne as my favorite ST character in general. I wish there was a few more Tuvok-centric episodes. Well acted and interesting, did well as the main character, and was an important supporting character. What I consider to be a "real Vulcan"

Here's where the problems start:

Harry Kim: The young Ensign Kim angle got old really fast, and there was nothing else to the character beyond this. They were going to knock him off but didn't. I consider Harry a pivot character. If he was a better character, there would have been far more balance in the bridge ensemble. He was not a consistently interesting character.

Tom Paris: I like the Tom Paris character, but like Harry Kim, they never took the character anywhere. I think if the Harry Kim character was better, Tom would have worked better. He was not a consistently interesting supporting character, or lead character. I really want to put this character in the top list, but I have to be honest.

Neelix: Someone wrote that "Phlox", the doctor on Enterprise was what the "Neelix character should have been". I think I understand this. Phlox was a strong, well acted character, where Neelix really wasn't. The character of Neelix had so much potential, but in my opinion Ethan Philips can't act (from what I've seen in Neelix, and his other TV appearances over the years), and so that potential went untapped. The character was needed to be a strong supporting character, but just fell flat. What was wrong with Neelix? Ethan Philips.

Kes: Kes was portrayed by a much better actor than Neelix, but there really was nowhere for the character to go. There was some initial interest with the character early on, but it quickly became obvious that she wasn't adding very much to the show (sorry Kes guy!) Maybe if some of the other characters were stronger it would have worked, but... , She did not do well when she was the story lead, but worked well as a minor supporting character.

B'Elana: Angry Half-Klingon Ho hum. They should have killed off her human side when she was split by the Vidians. Imagine that. That woud have added some juice to the character. Was an inconsistently interesting supporting character.

Just my thoughts. But, I think the DS9 ensemble was worse.