The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?
- Thread starter crookeddy
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Hmm... so I am "naive" because I refuse to extrapolate an outcome based on an absence of data?
What would we call someone who shapes his or her view of the financial viability of entertainment franchise based on rumors and speculations amplified by YouTube "channels" who benefit from the views generated by controversial viewpoints?
Naive to think that there isn't a problem that just because you like the film and you like what the corporate conglomerate has done to the franchise that you can't see what is actually happening.
Maybe I'm a little slow, but could you give me a rundown of exactly what you believe is happening here?
And what is "actually happening" here? And why should the average fan be "worried?"
What Disney has "done" to the property is what every company does with every single one of their products - try to use it to create money.
Disney is extremely good at maximizing the financial potential of their brands. They are doing everything they can to get money out of Star Wars. This isn't a surprise.
Disney is also pumping the brakes on the SW film franchise, as they realized the rapid release schedule they had started with was unsustainable (hence the failure of Solo.) Smart move.
At the same time, they are still doing everything in their power to maximize the brand. There are no less than THREE live action SW TV shows now in development, the first one is only two months from airing.
There are SW theme park lands with an entire SW-themed hotel in development.
If you think this is hurting the brand or you have burnout or just don't like the product, fine. You don't have to like it. If you think Disney is making a mistake in doing all of this, also fine. They certainly have made mistakes so far.
Personally, I think the Disney film franchise is batting .500. Two good movies, two bad. I'm looking forward to some of the shows, but don't care about others. However you feel about the franchise is valid, as long as you're honest about it.
Who used to own Star Wars before Disney? Who was it that ALSO merchandized the ever-loving shit out of it with products as terrible as a Darth Vader-themed McDonald's burger (with a dyed black bun!) and SW-themed Angry Birds merch?
Who was it that ALSO batted roughly .500 in terms of quality SW movies vs bad ones?
Oh, right. George Lucas.
None of this is new and to pretend otherwise is truly "naive" - or just plain dishonest.
Disney is extremely good at maximizing the financial potential of their brands. They are doing everything they can to get money out of Star Wars. This isn't a surprise.
Disney is also pumping the brakes on the SW film franchise, as they realized the rapid release schedule they had started with was unsustainable (hence the failure of Solo.) Smart move.
At the same time, they are still doing everything in their power to maximize the brand. There are no less than THREE live action SW TV shows now in development, the first one is only two months from airing.
There are SW theme park lands with an entire SW-themed hotel in development.
If you think this is hurting the brand or you have burnout or just don't like the product, fine. You don't have to like it. If you think Disney is making a mistake in doing all of this, also fine. They certainly have made mistakes so far.
Personally, I think the Disney film franchise is batting .500. Two good movies, two bad. I'm looking forward to some of the shows, but don't care about others. However you feel about the franchise is valid, as long as you're honest about it.
Who used to own Star Wars before Disney? Who was it that ALSO merchandized the ever-loving shit out of it with products as terrible as a Darth Vader-themed McDonald's burger (with a dyed black bun!) and SW-themed Angry Birds merch?
Who was it that ALSO batted roughly .500 in terms of quality SW movies vs bad ones?
Oh, right. George Lucas.
None of this is new and to pretend otherwise is truly "naive" - or just plain dishonest.
How does it make them buffoons? Poe (again and using similar dialog to his conversation with Kylo in TFA) is just keeping true to character. Hux is intent on making threats and Poe isn't listening. That does not make Hux a buffoon. I found that entire exchange to be very fun and a great way to start a film. It reminded me of the opening to ROTJ with Theepio trying to talk his way into Jabba's palace.
TFA has annoyed me less on subsequent viewings (I passed two in the theater and countless at home). While it is a nice visual homage to the OT, I find Abrams editing to have big holes in it. I have loved TLJ since my first viewing. There is a lot to like there if you don't have your mind made up on what the movie should be.
Well, our view of Hux may change with TROS. And Hux has been shown to be full of himself and his own importance since TFA.
What I typically find is that a lot of people who like TFA missed things that TLJ continued and then they are blaming TLJ for the TFA setup.
He’s pretending he is on hold in a phone conversation. That’s the language being used. It’s..clunky. I am sure it’s supposed to bring to mind ‘i’m Fine how are you’ except that occurs further into the film...same with threepio at jabbas palace (which was half conducted in huttese or something, and contains no humorous lines, played straight, except for maybe ‘I don’t think they’re going to let us in’.)
It makes the villains look like pantomime characters and buffoons because you have Hux doing his ott glowering, and the whole ‘can he hear me’ thing...it’s way more in line with a spoof. Then we have ‘about five minutes ago’. This isn’t tightly run conquerors of the galaxy, it’s illinois Nazis in Blues Brothers. Worse, it’s the keystone cops.
The acting is way too Looney Tunes.
This would all have worked fine a bit further into the film...don’t forget Jedi didn’t open with Threepio at Jabbas, it opens on Vader at the second Death Star.
It needs more of an opening with gravitas or at least playing it straight...overhead big spaceship is not enough. The closest thing we have to humour in a Star Wars opening is ROTS and that flippancy is more ‘heroic banter’ in a firefight.
Perhaps this was originally supposed to come after Hans memorial/funeral, which would have made for a better bit of gravitas, and possibly some suggestion of time passing (even we then accept a minor time jump - which we have to anyway - when we see Luke tossing the sabre.) which would help allay one of the other problems in the film.
We can chalk it up to subverting expectations....buuuuttt....tbh I am over that as an excuse for bad writing. And tbh, if people want to know why people like Ernest Cline are doing gang busters, it’s because it’s now subverting of expectations by not subverting expectations. Reverting expectations. Confusing the expectations. XD
Like I said, I want to rewatch it...there’s good in it...I can sense it xD.
But atm I do feel like it’s not a well thought out or well written piece of Star Wars cinema.
^ To be fair, the Poe scene was originally supposed to happen a little later. The film was supposed to open with Finn waking up.
I think Finn's awakening might have been a better choice and might have added a little gravity to the situation. HOWEVER, I can see the desire to get right into the action, which involves the same slightly goofy Poe we saw from the moment he was captured by Kylo's forces in TFA.
I think Finn's awakening might have been a better choice and might have added a little gravity to the situation. HOWEVER, I can see the desire to get right into the action, which involves the same slightly goofy Poe we saw from the moment he was captured by Kylo's forces in TFA.
Take out the prat fall and it works better. And avoids the 'hear star destroyers arrive from the ground' too. Plus the helmet shot works well.
Thing is i always felt the opening had been reedited. Not least as theres a confusion over on the surface and already in space (but guess they had to go for something more like the hoth scene they would ape again later.)
I have no problem with the pratfall. He had been sliced up the back not all that long before and had been in a coma for a bit. He's not going to have full control of his faculties.
Yeah, because Star Wars has always been great with how sound actually works. I mean, you could totally hear TIE Fighters scream in the depths of space. What an odd thing to complain about.
Sure, the fall is logical, but if i was using it as an opening i would consider it unecessary. In fact i woukd go with something else to show hes unsteady.
In terms of space soubd realism... Sure. I get the dramatic conventions. But what we are talking about is 'hearing something arrive in orbit' which is close enough to actual human experience to be jarring. Can you hear a plane above a certain height?
You can kind of think 'ah spaceship noise is space is energy making whatever i the viewer am in' or jist accept it for a feeling... Like many, i have never been in space, the lack of sound in space is a known thing, not an instinct, so there is no contradiction.
The lack of sound from something in HALO? Yeah. Known thing. They are also popping out of hyperspace into atmosphere (visually the shot jars with the next... Though we already sae pace wepons in the last film...) which we were last told was rare, dangerous, and required a unique vessel. Theres a lot of short cuts and they feel noticeable.
The youtube link there does work better as an opening.
This is my viewing as well. Poe is very much a flippant, and sarcastic, character. His combat humor fits with this personality.
Hux is a self-important, arrogant, and filled with his own sense of superiority. His frustration with the transmission plays very well with his personality, just like Poe's distraction plays with his own personality.
Well, that's not the choice that Boyega and Johnson made.
Yes. Its called suspension of disbelief. You want reality? Don't watch Star Wars. Don't watch Star Trek. Hell, don't watch any sci-fi or fantasy? Seriously, just don't watch any movies or TV shows, because frankly there's a ton of that needed in entertainment. Its needed for shortcuts because the filmmakers decided the scene needed a sense of urgency. Hearing the Star Destroyers on the surface requires probably less suspension in fact as say, a group of superheroes including a genetically modified supersoldier who was frozen for seventy years, a giant green hulk of a man, a god, a talking raccoon and an android travelling through time in order to obtain a bunch of stones that are pivotal in the reversing a tyrant's action of wiping out of half of the universe's population.
If you didn't know, that is the plot of the highest grossing film of all time (unadjusted).
Just sayin'.
I do not disagree. But again, its not the choice that was made. I can armchair criticize the hell out of choices made in all ten Star Wars films all I want to. But I don't make the films. I watch them. I enjoy them for what they are. No, TLJ is not perfect. It has flaws. But so does the overly lauded TESB.
Well, that's not the choice that Boyega and Johnson made.
Yes. Its called suspension of disbelief. You want reality? Don't watch Star Wars. Don't watch Star Trek. Hell, don't watch any sci-fi or fantasy? Seriously, just don't watch any movies or TV shows, because frankly there's a ton of that needed in entertainment. Its needed for shortcuts because the filmmakers decided the scene needed a sense of urgency. Hearing the Star Destroyers on the surface requires probably less suspension in fact as say, a group of superheroes including a genetically modified supersoldier who was frozen for seventy years, a giant green hulk of a man, a god, a talking raccoon and an android travelling through time in order to obtain a bunch of stones that are pivotal in the reversing a tyrant's action of wiping out of half of the universe's population.
If you didn't know, that is the plot of the highest grossing film of all time (unadjusted).
Just sayin'.
I do not disagree. But again, its not the choice that was made. I can armchair criticize the hell out of choices made in all ten Star Wars films all I want to. But I don't make the films. I watch them. I enjoy them for what they are. No, TLJ is not perfect. It has flaws. But so does the overly lauded TESB.
Easy cowboy.
I think they made the wrong choice.
I am also not demanding a very literal realism. And trust me, I know suspension of disbelief in about eight directions. But there’s also a little thing called internal consistency, and in this case that carries across the whole saga. And tone. And motif. I am not even that fussed about the Star Destroyer Boeing’s. (Hence me not including it in my original criticism here of the opening...it’s a wrinkle, the other things are tears.) But that original opening is better.
Also, I never judge stuff by how much money it makes. It’s always a crap defence. Having a ton of money is no indicator of virtue, or in this case, artistic merit. Blade runner and it’s sequel made disappointing to studios money...does that mean they are shit?
Endgame plays by marvel universe rules, set up by seventy odd plus years of comics, twenty years or so of films to establish their screen version.
I am not an ESB man xD
The most fervent attackers and defenders of this film often seem to be assuming anyone they are in disagreement with is an idiot. Honestly.
I did not call you an idiot.
I did not imply you were an idiot.
You can think they made the wrong choice all you want. That's fine. I'm just saying that I could choose to nitpick all I want. Because honestly, there is a lot of stuff in Star Wars to nitpick. But why? I enjoy the stuff as it is. Its just not perfect.
As for the Marvel stuff, my point is that its popular and most people? They don't care. They can suspend their disbelief and not make a big deal about it. That is literally all I'm saying.
And don't you dare call me cowboy again, sir.
No, not really.
Your diatribe around suspension of disbelief, and indeed your use of the avenger certainly implied assumptions (that I was looking for realism in Star Wars) and a lack knowledge as to how this stuff works. Let alone the odd thing about box office. I mean what’s that got to with anything?
And I am hardly making a big deal about any of it... I’m as objective as anyone that grew up on this stuff and studied this stuff can be. I certainly don’t come for it with a political axe like some do (I tend to laugh at those people. They are very strange.)
And cowboy? You find that to be insulting *holds up hands* well, sorry for that I guess. It’s a bit of a common phrase. Never heard anyone get bent out shape about it before unless they really hate westerns (which I get) or had some oddly terrifying experience involving a ten gallon hat (which, having lived through the era of Dallas...or was it Dynasty...) I can also kinda see.
I apologize if there was a miscommunication. Just making a point and perhaps it didn't land as well as I thought.
I grew up in the Midwest. I now live in Texas. I see a lot of cowboys and a lot of people who think they're cowboys. I'm not a fan. I hate Texas. Its hot. And I'm sick and tired of Texans being obsessed with the idea that its the greatest place on Earth. For some, it may be. For me, its far from it. I don't want to live here. My wife and I are both tired of it and trying to get out. I equate Texas with cowboys. I took it as an insult based upon the fact that it is listed in my location. It's a sore subject. I'm probably too sensitive about it.
Implying someone discussing Star Wars in a corner of a Star Trek board doesn’t understand suspension of disbelief? I mean it’s hardly a rininging endorsement of my assumed intelligence level.
And the crazy attackers fly in with arcane canon and grumbling at the people that like the film for being dumb SJWs who don’t know how the world (real or imagined works) and the crazy defenders fly back with subverted expectations and hate the other side for being dumb incels or some such. Generally speaking, the rage is strong on both sides in this one. (Granted, the odd sexist arguments are made by complete dicks, so *shrug* they win in the Who is most annoying when talking about this film stakes.)
Both seem to assume the other side has never seen (a) a film before and (b) a Star Wars film.
It’s not above criticism. It didn’t pop in like those Star Destroyers. Of the films it’s roughly a Jawas height above criticism. Criticism, in this example, is a wookie.